Recently someone asked:
A mother is thinking about homeschooling her children because she doesn't trust the school system. She feels she is perfectly qualified to teach her children, and just because she doesn't have "a piece of paper" stating that she has completed teacher training or a degree, she's still qualified. The arrogance in this statement ASTOUNDS me. Am I taking this wrong?
Your child's education determines the manner in which your child will enter the world for the rest of their life. If nothing else, it is your duty as a parent to see that your child is fed, sheltered, safe, and educated. You may have the best intentions and I understand the reasons people would consider home-schooling a child. But it is a bad idea.
Let me weigh in as a college professor. There is a reason that our teachers are educated, trained, and experienced. We’re not hacks despite the implication of your question and our job is not something just anyone can do. Not everyone can teach.
Home-schooling your child doesn't necessarily give them a better education. I have been a teacher at 3 different types of secondary schools as well as at an elementary school. I have been teaching for more than 12 years. I can often spot a home-schooled student immediately because they stand out in ability, behavior, and class performance, and not in a good way. A couple have been proficient students and one a good student, but all struggle, with social and communication skills especially.
Why would you deprive your child of a trained teacher and a socialized environment? I understand the theoretical reasons, but in practical life it is a bad idea. Some say it is tantamount to child abuse. I don't agree and am willing to bet that almost all home-schooling parents do so with the best intentions, and that's not abuse to me. However, I also read claims made about what teachers are and what teachers do, and this directly contradicts what I see. Parents, I hope you will actually talk to elementary teachers and keep educating yourself on what exactly teachers do.
Many of the parents say they can provide adequate socialization. Is it healthy for a child to spend all their time with a parent? Socialization isn't just about play dates. Its about experiencing society. Sometimes well-intentioned parents get tunnel vision. Helicopter parents become Velcro parents who may want to do the right thing but make bad choices.
Not a single home-schooled child I have ever encountered has the social skills with which to thrive in college and their professional life.
Home-schooled children are often alienated by their peers, have to struggle to catch up, and miss out on most important formative activities. They are nice students, good kids, and often very bright kids, with loving parents. However, they don't have a wealth of experience to share with their peers or with which to build upon in their writing and critical thinking. They only have some things their mom told them. Is that who you want your child to become? The youth who missed out on the rich, complex, diverse education provided by trained teachers? Do you want your child to reap only the fruits of your own experience, worldview, and education? If so, be honest about it. Because that, for better and for worse, is what homeschooling parents want: total control.
But wanting to shelter your child from anything outside your own experience, worldview, and education is wrong. It is why many people see home-schooling as a cult. What makes you think you are not only more qualified than trained experts, despite having no training or experience, but that you (or your small community) should be the only influence upon another human being as they develop - or that you should monitor every and all aspects of this child's life?
You need to trust teachers a little more. Far too many parents think they can protect or over-control, organize, and plan the social environment to such an intense degree that children miss their childhood. Parents are not teachers and teachers are not parents. A child benefits from having each. At what point did you decide that you are smarter than trained teachers? Based on what exactly?
There is little evidence that children do better home-schooled after the 8th grade and by that point you have crippled them so much that re-entering them into the school system is traumatic. Moms and dads are teachers in so many ways – but not in educational subjects. Many children learn things nowadays that even their parents don't know, or aren't equipped to teach or learn. I'm not sure where you got the idea that taking math as a 10 year old qualifies you to teach math to a 10 year old.
Teachers learn how to teach math, literature, history, social studies, and so on to particular age levels because children have different cognitive abilities and ways of learning than an adult. Teaching is not about "a piece of paper." Teaching is about qualifications, training, experience, skill, knowledge, and passion.
Research does show that some home-schooled children do better at standardized testing than other children. However, 12 years of school is about far more than standardized testing. Teaching to the test is never a good idea. Education isn't about testing - it is about understanding. And if YOU as "the teacher" don't understand, and if they as "the student" don't have any complex and diverse experiences from which to draw, and have at best partially educated and untrained teachers, they will FAIL the goals of education. Parents who try to "pick up" subject matter, who aren't properly trained to teach it to particular cognitive levels of development, often end up teaching to the test.
The research is clear on this one point if you believe nothing else I’ve said: students learn best from peers. All through school, all through life, we learn from working alongside others. Arranging play dates is NOT the same thing. Children need an environment away from parents, and with other children and trained adult leaders. Your job is not to make a robot. Your job is to provide the best and the most you can, which often means letting others help, and letting the child learn.
Home-schooling is the foie-gras of education. You cannot be everything to your child, and the impetus that drives you to think you can or should be, is harmful to your child. You think you're doing your "student" a favor, but you're not. You're trying to do your child a favor, but you're not letting them be a child or a student when you force feed your own limited world view and version of education down their throat. Languages, art, mathematics, communication, music, history, chemistry and other sciences – what will you do when you need to teach these? You may think your child can just be plopped into 5th grade once you realize you can take his learning no further but all you've done is given them more challenges to overcome, not less.
By the time your child graduates high school, they can either have one parent as a teacher, and highly monitored socializing, from a parent who is exhausted, untrained, and uneducated in subject material. Or they can have a multiplicity of teachers and peers who have helped develop their cognitive abilities. They can be tightly wound under your every footstep or they can have a diverse experience with a variety of environments catered specifically to education.
An education is a holistic amalgamation of larger things - it is the complex web and interchange of dialogue, roles, social environment, peers, teachers, leadership, and information from trained specialists. It is not just reading a few books with someone who has a piece of paper. Teachers work in the evenings and on weekends to give your child the best education possible. They sacrifice a higher paying career and they dedicate their lives to the education and training necessary to teach your child. Teachers are trained to teach. You are not. Please don't minimize my training, experience, and years of dedication as a "piece of paper."
Public education isn't what it should be. Nobody likes NCLB except people who are not teachers. Standardized tests are problematic and most teachers think so. Not having standards of any kind is equally problematic. How will you know if you're not teaching your "student" well? How will you know your student is getting an exceptional well-rounded education? You may see clever little slogans like "No Homeschooled Child is Left Behind." That is a lie. Every homeschooled child is left behind.
In my experience, home-schooled students are more likely to be bright, and are more likely to be poorly socially adapted, not understand holistic concepts or context, suffer from undiagnosed learning disabilities, be emotionally stunted, and sometimes are nearly illiterate. Before you ruin your child's childhood, get an education about education, please.
It doesn't anger me that you'd consider home-schooling your child. I really do understand your concerns and motivations and intentions. It angers me that you think all teachers have is a piece of paper. Paper isn’t what qualifies teachers – education, training, apprenticeship, experience, and multiple degrees do. I go to workshops, I give presentations, I have reviewers monitor me, I take tests, I read books, I work with other teachers, I train other teachers, I take exams, I am evaluated, I write articles, I do research, I watch other teachers teach and they watch me, and I strive constantly to be better. That isn’t just a "piece of paper."
I have years of practice, and experience teaching in addition to education and degrees. That isn’t a "piece of paper."
I am trained not only in my subject area but in learning styles and teaching strategies. This took years and a great deal of experience. That isn’t a "piece of paper."
Do you know how to recognize dyslexia? Do you know how to teach differently to students with different needs? Because I do. That isn't a "piece of paper."
I am trained and have experience designing an educational curriculum, lesson plans, textbooks, class activities, interactive skill-building sets, use of instructional technology, and behavior management as well as a variety of teaching strategies. That isn’t a "piece of paper."
And even as the best parent in the world, you don’t have that. You may be qualified to be a wonderful and loving parent who can teach your child many things. You are not qualified, however, to be a full time teacher to your child. Talk to the teachers, see what they do and what they have in mind. I bet you will find they have a lot more than a piece of paper to share.
Look, I like my home-schooled students quite a bit. Many are bright and lovely students. And I don't mean to offend parents who just want to do the right thing. And right now our education system is not good enough. But homeschooling is not the answer, I feel this very strongly. If it is your answer, I'll see your kid in office hours so I can spend my time off helping them catch up... and no piece of paper will ever explain how hard I work when you decide to do my job, and fail.
**Update: let me be clear, I am not referring to children with special needs that are diagnosed and then removed from school to be home-schooled and receive more individual attention. These parents still need extra support, but I am in no way trying to demonize parents of children who already have recognized conditions that the parents feel the public-school sector cannot address. It is, however, sad that we aren't able to provide education for these children too. What I am saying about learning disorders is that often students with learning disorders who are removed from school before the learning disorders are properly diagnosed, do not receive adequate help from home-schooling, and it shows.
Do you really need a degree to be a good teacher?Well let me ask you this. Do you need to be a good parent to raise a child?
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Your child's education determines the manner in which your child will enter the world for the rest of their life. If nothing else, it is your duty as a parent to see that your child is fed, sheltered, safe, and educated. You may have the best intentions and I understand the reasons people would consider home-schooling a child. But it is a bad idea.
Let me weigh in as a college professor. There is a reason that our teachers are educated, trained, and experienced. We’re not hacks despite the implication of your question and our job is not something just anyone can do. Not everyone can teach.
Home-schooling your child doesn't necessarily give them a better education. I have been a teacher at 3 different types of secondary schools as well as at an elementary school. I have been teaching for more than 12 years. I can often spot a home-schooled student immediately because they stand out in ability, behavior, and class performance, and not in a good way. A couple have been proficient students and one a good student, but all struggle, with social and communication skills especially.
Why would you deprive your child of a trained teacher and a socialized environment? I understand the theoretical reasons, but in practical life it is a bad idea. Some say it is tantamount to child abuse. I don't agree and am willing to bet that almost all home-schooling parents do so with the best intentions, and that's not abuse to me. However, I also read claims made about what teachers are and what teachers do, and this directly contradicts what I see. Parents, I hope you will actually talk to elementary teachers and keep educating yourself on what exactly teachers do.
Many of the parents say they can provide adequate socialization. Is it healthy for a child to spend all their time with a parent? Socialization isn't just about play dates. Its about experiencing society. Sometimes well-intentioned parents get tunnel vision. Helicopter parents become Velcro parents who may want to do the right thing but make bad choices.
Not a single home-schooled child I have ever encountered has the social skills with which to thrive in college and their professional life.
Home-schooled children are often alienated by their peers, have to struggle to catch up, and miss out on most important formative activities. They are nice students, good kids, and often very bright kids, with loving parents. However, they don't have a wealth of experience to share with their peers or with which to build upon in their writing and critical thinking. They only have some things their mom told them. Is that who you want your child to become? The youth who missed out on the rich, complex, diverse education provided by trained teachers? Do you want your child to reap only the fruits of your own experience, worldview, and education? If so, be honest about it. Because that, for better and for worse, is what homeschooling parents want: total control.
But wanting to shelter your child from anything outside your own experience, worldview, and education is wrong. It is why many people see home-schooling as a cult. What makes you think you are not only more qualified than trained experts, despite having no training or experience, but that you (or your small community) should be the only influence upon another human being as they develop - or that you should monitor every and all aspects of this child's life?
You need to trust teachers a little more. Far too many parents think they can protect or over-control, organize, and plan the social environment to such an intense degree that children miss their childhood. Parents are not teachers and teachers are not parents. A child benefits from having each. At what point did you decide that you are smarter than trained teachers? Based on what exactly?
There is little evidence that children do better home-schooled after the 8th grade and by that point you have crippled them so much that re-entering them into the school system is traumatic. Moms and dads are teachers in so many ways – but not in educational subjects. Many children learn things nowadays that even their parents don't know, or aren't equipped to teach or learn. I'm not sure where you got the idea that taking math as a 10 year old qualifies you to teach math to a 10 year old.
Teachers learn how to teach math, literature, history, social studies, and so on to particular age levels because children have different cognitive abilities and ways of learning than an adult. Teaching is not about "a piece of paper." Teaching is about qualifications, training, experience, skill, knowledge, and passion.
Research does show that some home-schooled children do better at standardized testing than other children. However, 12 years of school is about far more than standardized testing. Teaching to the test is never a good idea. Education isn't about testing - it is about understanding. And if YOU as "the teacher" don't understand, and if they as "the student" don't have any complex and diverse experiences from which to draw, and have at best partially educated and untrained teachers, they will FAIL the goals of education. Parents who try to "pick up" subject matter, who aren't properly trained to teach it to particular cognitive levels of development, often end up teaching to the test.
The research is clear on this one point if you believe nothing else I’ve said: students learn best from peers. All through school, all through life, we learn from working alongside others. Arranging play dates is NOT the same thing. Children need an environment away from parents, and with other children and trained adult leaders. Your job is not to make a robot. Your job is to provide the best and the most you can, which often means letting others help, and letting the child learn.
Home-schooling is the foie-gras of education. You cannot be everything to your child, and the impetus that drives you to think you can or should be, is harmful to your child. You think you're doing your "student" a favor, but you're not. You're trying to do your child a favor, but you're not letting them be a child or a student when you force feed your own limited world view and version of education down their throat. Languages, art, mathematics, communication, music, history, chemistry and other sciences – what will you do when you need to teach these? You may think your child can just be plopped into 5th grade once you realize you can take his learning no further but all you've done is given them more challenges to overcome, not less.
By the time your child graduates high school, they can either have one parent as a teacher, and highly monitored socializing, from a parent who is exhausted, untrained, and uneducated in subject material. Or they can have a multiplicity of teachers and peers who have helped develop their cognitive abilities. They can be tightly wound under your every footstep or they can have a diverse experience with a variety of environments catered specifically to education.
An education is a holistic amalgamation of larger things - it is the complex web and interchange of dialogue, roles, social environment, peers, teachers, leadership, and information from trained specialists. It is not just reading a few books with someone who has a piece of paper. Teachers work in the evenings and on weekends to give your child the best education possible. They sacrifice a higher paying career and they dedicate their lives to the education and training necessary to teach your child. Teachers are trained to teach. You are not. Please don't minimize my training, experience, and years of dedication as a "piece of paper."
Public education isn't what it should be. Nobody likes NCLB except people who are not teachers. Standardized tests are problematic and most teachers think so. Not having standards of any kind is equally problematic. How will you know if you're not teaching your "student" well? How will you know your student is getting an exceptional well-rounded education? You may see clever little slogans like "No Homeschooled Child is Left Behind." That is a lie. Every homeschooled child is left behind.
In my experience, home-schooled students are more likely to be bright, and are more likely to be poorly socially adapted, not understand holistic concepts or context, suffer from undiagnosed learning disabilities, be emotionally stunted, and sometimes are nearly illiterate. Before you ruin your child's childhood, get an education about education, please.
It doesn't anger me that you'd consider home-schooling your child. I really do understand your concerns and motivations and intentions. It angers me that you think all teachers have is a piece of paper. Paper isn’t what qualifies teachers – education, training, apprenticeship, experience, and multiple degrees do. I go to workshops, I give presentations, I have reviewers monitor me, I take tests, I read books, I work with other teachers, I train other teachers, I take exams, I am evaluated, I write articles, I do research, I watch other teachers teach and they watch me, and I strive constantly to be better. That isn’t just a "piece of paper."
I have years of practice, and experience teaching in addition to education and degrees. That isn’t a "piece of paper."
I am trained not only in my subject area but in learning styles and teaching strategies. This took years and a great deal of experience. That isn’t a "piece of paper."
Do you know how to recognize dyslexia? Do you know how to teach differently to students with different needs? Because I do. That isn't a "piece of paper."
I am trained and have experience designing an educational curriculum, lesson plans, textbooks, class activities, interactive skill-building sets, use of instructional technology, and behavior management as well as a variety of teaching strategies. That isn’t a "piece of paper."
And even as the best parent in the world, you don’t have that. You may be qualified to be a wonderful and loving parent who can teach your child many things. You are not qualified, however, to be a full time teacher to your child. Talk to the teachers, see what they do and what they have in mind. I bet you will find they have a lot more than a piece of paper to share.
Look, I like my home-schooled students quite a bit. Many are bright and lovely students. And I don't mean to offend parents who just want to do the right thing. And right now our education system is not good enough. But homeschooling is not the answer, I feel this very strongly. If it is your answer, I'll see your kid in office hours so I can spend my time off helping them catch up... and no piece of paper will ever explain how hard I work when you decide to do my job, and fail.
**Update: let me be clear, I am not referring to children with special needs that are diagnosed and then removed from school to be home-schooled and receive more individual attention. These parents still need extra support, but I am in no way trying to demonize parents of children who already have recognized conditions that the parents feel the public-school sector cannot address. It is, however, sad that we aren't able to provide education for these children too. What I am saying about learning disorders is that often students with learning disorders who are removed from school before the learning disorders are properly diagnosed, do not receive adequate help from home-schooling, and it shows.
143 comments:
Every single homeschooled child I've met acts as if they're autistic. Zero social cues! It's a form of child abuse! In the same regard, Indianna is trying to pass a law that all beauty professionals no longer need to hold a license. Perfect! I would love to have a 17 year old high school dropout apply chemicals near my brain and eyes and take a straight razor to my neck!
Btw, this is Gina.
I don't know why this post isn't letting your comments on here guys...
It's probably because you posted it on the weekend...
Anyway... I don't have time to go into all of your points: I both agree with you and disagree with you.
I'll sum it with this:
I am vastly more qualified to be teaching my (younger 2) children than any of the teachers they have. This is not an opinion. I'm smarter than they are and know more than they do. I could step into any of their classrooms and do a better job than they are doing (except I don't have the "piece of paper" that says that). That said, my kids go to school.
(Also: you are the exception. Most teachers aren't as qualified as you or as interested in their students as you.)
I'm not sure if my post will show up but I just started reading your blog today and have been cracking up at most but this one has me at least as offended as you were when you wrote it.
I have three children. My oldest is something of a genius and now getting her butt handed to her in college because our school system and I failed her. My middle babe is in public high-school and it is not peachy at all. I am homeschooling my youngest for the second time around. There are many reasons people choose to teach their children at home, it is not such a neatly wrapped package as you have suggested here. I wish we had teachers and a system that worked like you have written it, but it just is not the case.
You're probably right. I hated high-school and dropped out myself. Our education system is generally in shambles. I'm not against parents finding other options, not at all. And I believe that many parents are frustrated with the education their children receive, and I know from my end many teachers are frustrated too. I probably boxed it up too neatly. There are no easy solutions.
I was SO offended at the idea that this would be an automatic or obvious or easy decision - to fully and wholly educate one's child, and to do so without any kind of training whatsoever. Like I'm an idiot and my job is easy, you know?
I think if the question had been framed "can you provide an education for your child outside of public education, what will it take, and is it the right idea for you?" rather than "do you really need a degree to be a good teacher?" - that was a knife to the heart for me.
Thanks for reading and replying. I do value your opinion. You're a mom and you see your kids not getting what they deserve and that must be infuriating. I don't usually get all ranty like this here it just hit a bit of a sore spot - but I'm open to other opinions and learning too, truly!!
Also, thank you for being honest!!
I do see the reason to homeschool sometimes. Schools can fail our kids and if the parent is qualified to teach their child at home, then I'm all for it.
But! I will completely agree with you where you say that a teaching degree is so much more than a piece of paper. I'm a certified teacher. And was trained in *how* to teach. I think what people don't get is that it's not so much about knowing a subject, but knowing HOW to teach it. Don't get me wrong, you need to know your subject, too- but knowing how to best teach is the most important thing- b/c you can always brush up on your facts before a unit, but it's not as easy to know how to teach.
I understand and I appreciate your comment. I do need to be more open to the home-school idea. I just see SO many results of when it goes wrong. Of course I do also see results of how poorly our high schools are preparing children on the whole for college.
And yes I think part of my frustration was this idea that just anyone can teach, or that it doesn't require training, skill, preparation, and ability. My cousin, for example, a loving and bright woman, suggested that I would be able to homeschool my hypothetical high-school age kids. I said what about Spanish? She said she was sure I'd be able to teach them Spanish and I'd figure it out along the way. I don't want my teens to learn Spanish from someone who doesn't speak it!
But mostly, my frustration was the idea of preparation and training. Teachers don't just dump knowledge, as you know, into the brains of pupils. They understand age-ability-learning-style, and can read a student to see where they struggle. That takes practice and training and skill. You put it great - we don't just teach the subject matter, we learn and try to improve, HOW to teach the material.
I know this is true because I am good at what I do. I also know this is true because I cannot just teach my little sister math. I have no idea how to best explain to a teenager some of the methods of learning mathematic principles. I know how *I* would figure it out, but that doesn't mean it will help her figure it out.
I have 25 students in each of my classes, and this includes high-school students, freshmen college students, teenagers, and non-traditional 50 year olds and everyone in between. Some are gifted writers, some are autistic, some are dyslexic, some are shy, and some are creative. I am trained to teach to all styles of learning, and all learning patterns.
I wouldn't expect to be able to teach math as well as I can teach English.
I do need to be more gracious and open-minded about home-schooling. But I think parents also need to be more cautious about this idea that teachers just have some piece of paper and their job isn't very difficult.
Thanks for your comments!! :)
And also thanks for letting me Pour My Heart Out. Usually on this blog I try to be lighthearted and funny. This is the one area where my heart is truly invested and I just had to let the steam out or my head would burst :)
Yes, there are families who keep their children under a rock, and do not properly socialize them when they are homeschooled. These families are also irresponsible in not seeking resources available to them to help teach their child.
MOST homeschooling children/families are not like this. Because I homeschool my oldest son, his social activities have actually increased. Why? Because he is not spending the time doing school work after the school day. Because I homeschool him, he is learning Spanish in the 5th grade instead of waiting until highschool. Because I homeschool my son, we can keep working on a specific lesson instead of making him stop to move onto another subject. Because I homeschool my son, he understood fractions the first time I taught them because we were able to use "real world" measurements rather than just relying on a textbook. See what I'm getting at? There are more families like mine than the ones you describe.
Teacher or not, your arrogance on the matter just astounds me.
Well I think your concern comes from a belief, justified or not, that teachers don't know what they're doing or don't do it well. And that's how I feel about most parents who try to teach their children, so that's where we differ. I'm sure we can find evidence to back up our own experiences.
Let me ask you this - are you fluent in Spanish? I don't have anything against teaching languages earlier on. I think they should be taught from the beginning. And I certainly support revising the educational curriculum. The reason I ask about your own fluency is because homeschooling teachers have told me, in my own experience, that their total lack of ability to speak a foreign language was okay - they would just "pick it up along the way" - and I wouldn't want my child to learn that way. If you are fluent, great. If you're not, then I don't think you are qualified to teach it. Even if you are fluent, that doesn't make you a good language teacher. You might be, and fair play to you if you have concrete reason to believe so (thi is where the importance of education, training, and certified degree in teaching at child development levels comes in) but you would be unusual.
Oh I don't think its arrogance at all on my part. I think it is outrage at the audacity at others. I realize I may sound offensive, but it isn't arrogance. It's anger.
I don't know many teachers who rely only on a textbook. Are you implying that that's what most teachers do? Do you have research, statistics, and evidence to back that up or just personal experience? Personal experience is valid enough, since its your child. However, it is insulting to imply that ALL teachers are like that - without credible evidence to suggest so. And as a teacher, my experience working with and training other teachers not only contradicts this implication, but qualifies me to say that most teachers that I have seen and researched do NOT rely just on a textbook and are not just qualified with a piece of paper. I appreciate your desire to instigate real world scenarios as a learning tool. That's a good instinct - and one that good teachers use also.
As for socialization, the child may have time for social interaction, but it is monitored through carefully selected interactions that, perhaps in your case perhaps not, insulate the child. Some may find this valuable. I find it dangerous.
I hope there are more families like yours than the ones I describe. I haven't come across this in my experience.
Thanks for responding, I do appreciate it. Like I said in my other comments, usually my posts here are lighthearted stories. I rant in this post because I feel deeply about this particular issue and it comes from seeing children, over and over, who have been damaged by home-schooling in ways that will last a lifetime, even with well-intentioned parents. And it frustrates me. I readily admit our primary education also may produce students who aren't doing as well as they should.
There is no easy answer. I feel, based on my experience, that in most cases homeschooling is the wrong answer. There may be exceptions, but I still think the children are fundamentally lacking realistic, diverse, and useful socialization, and that is my opinion and we can agree to disagree. I think its more important that we improve the public education system for all.
I cannot believe that you are vastly more qualified to teach your children than any of the teachers they have. How can this be? Seriously, you think you can step into any of their classrooms and do a better job than they are doing? Wow, I didn't know a piece of paper is what made me a teacher. I thought it was the years of practical training, my master's education in literacy and curriculum development, including my Master's Thesis on the implementation of explicit, systematic phonics with primary English Learners, my abilities as a master teacher to provide mentoring to new educators, my desire to make my classroom full of quality technology by purchasing my own computers and software, spending over 500 dollars of my own money to provide classroom management and instructional materials above what the school provides, scheduling before and after school parent meetings, calling and communicating with parents while sitting at home with a fever and caring for a sick child of my own, staying in my room until 9 pm several nights per week making sure my lessons and my materials were up to ready, taking on the job of Technology Mentor at my school to help provide other teachers with training, buying new and exciting books to inspire my children daily, staying in at recesses with struggling students when they can't understand math concepts, giving a hug to every child as they leave my class every day, getting yelled at by parents who refuse to use the crosswalks when I am on after school duty where I try to protect children, and CAN YOU TELL THAT YOU PISSED ME OFF?
How dare you say that my piece of paper is the only thing that gives me the power to teach! And if you think you can do a better job, get off your ass and stop complaining about us hardworking teachers who struggle, day in and day out, to help your children learn! Go get your own credentials and join the ranks of dedicated professionals who are so sick and tired of pompous parents who think what we do is so easy or that we don't give a shit ! Or better yet, why don't you just teach your children yourself? Fine with me! Our classes are so overcrowded as it is, what's two less kids to ruin?
I think Pish was TOO evenhanded about homeschooling. I hate and despise it. I actually find it despicable. 1) There is no way that one person can teach everything. By the time someone graduates from high school, they have an average of 42 teachers or so. This is a good thing. More people, more opinons, more presepectives, more areas of expertise. 2) And for me this is the most important point......I think it's awful to force kids to be with you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Kids need a break from their parents. At the end of the day, I don't care as much about the academic aspects. But kids need to experiment with their identities and discover their own opinions and likes/dislikes. They need to negotiate their own circle of friends. And they do to this WITHOUT their parents smothering them at every single step. Even if the parent finds some crazy community of homeschoolers and the kids socialize, they are socializing WITH THE PARENTS THERE. It's insane. Every activity, every moment is supervised by the parents. I suppose parents homeschool with good intentions. But I would venture to say that ALL parents who homeschool do it with controlling intentions. They can't let the child out of their sight for 6 hours a day. That believe they, as parents, have to be in charge of orchestrating their child's minute-by-minute experience. I find it creepy and overly controlling and deeply deeply troubling. I truly believe it's a form of child abuse and I believe that it should be illegal.
Pish Posh.
Well, for one...as "teacher", you have created really quite the name that most "teachers" would deserve. I actually didn't have the patience to read through all of your posts... actually teachers in general have left such a bad taste in my mouth..the more I read what you had written...the more red my neck was becoming. Not in that "red-neck" sort of way, that most teacher's think they are smarter...and more relevant...and more important than most people who are out there...but in the "you are making me so angry with your statements" sort of way. I know a lot of teachers... and what I know is that most of them took that as the "easy" way out in college...got their "teaching " degree so that they could have their summers off... melding the minds of our youth was never a thought in their mind. Of the countless "teachers" that I had just from k-12.... I can count maybe THREE of them that made a difference in my life, and made me want to LEARN something...And I have the UTMOST respect for those few...I am disgusted as the the parent of a high school student (same high school that I went to) that she can be taking AP classes.....yet the teacher doesn't even know her NAME three months into the school year. What kind of "teaching" is that???? Don't get me wrong...the one's that are in it for the children, I have the utmost respect, but I think it is few and far between...I totally understand why a parent would choose to home school, they have lost faith..
and seriously "Pish Posh"...who do you think you are????
Tehachapi has a large home school community. Many of the families do it because they fear the public schools. I find that insulting. I know some kids who are home schooled and I know their parents work hard at it. But I'd never do it. Quite often, the decision is made because the child had difficulties at school with behavior or social skills. Other times, it is a religious decision. For others, it is to protect the children from the "negative" influences of teachers and bullies. In the end, I feel it is an insult to us teachers who work so hard to educate and enrich the lives of our students.
I remember a mom from Aidan's baseball team said she was going to home school her first and second grade boys. She said to me, "how hard can it be to teach ABCs and 123s?". I ran into her the following year and she said she was amazed at how much goes into teaching beginning reading and math concepts. She recently reenrolled her kids in the public schools after doing it for three years. I think that home school parents should receive continued training and support as they teach. They won't have to deal with classroom management issues and the multitude of diverse learning modalities, but they do have to learn techniques that will help their children. They need to learn how to construct a lesson, how to properly teach it, monitor and adjust as necessary, check for understanding, and test for mastery. If it's not mastered, they need to reteach it differently. That's what our "paper" helps us learn. But we don't learn it right away. It takes practical experience. And it's not easy.
Well, Concerned, I suppose I think I am a concerned teacher.
And another thing "Pish Posh", as I have said...I know plenty of teachers...my FATHER is a professor at the Ohio State University..had formerly been a teacher and a principal at a high school, and he is a fantastic teacher..his students love him...he is passionate about what he does. My brother in law is a teacher, and he is so involved with his students and truly enjoys what he does... he makes the kids want to learn!!! My husband's ex- wife is a teacher..and let me tell you that her OWN children..would not even had known the ALPHABET before they started school if I and their father had not taught it to them... and she is a FIRST grade teacher...she doesn't CARE. And that is what I think the majority is. Unfortunately.
Actually I think you might be my daughter's AP English teacher.
I am sorry that is your experience. In addition to my own 80 students or more per semester, I also supervise 2 high school courses that get college credit from taking that course in high school with high school teachers. Not only do I know the names of every single one of my 80 students, and all 5000 or more of my previous students, but I also know the names of these high school students, who aren't even my students. I can understand your concern if that is true that some teachers don't know the names of all the students. It IS possible that the problem is not teachers being dickheads but the education system putting too many people in the classroom. Again, as I have reiterated many time here I admit the education system needs improving, but to blame it on teachers is unfair, unjust, and undeserved.
I'm sorry only a few teachers impacted your life in a meaningful way. That doesn't make it the case for everyone. But I agree, as I've said that our education system can be improved. I didn't much like my high school teachers either but it still isn't fair for me to take that experience and apply it to all teachers.
I've also said on here that I have not had a summer off since I began teaching. Teachers work so hard, for such little pay, that I spent previous summers doing side jobs or additional teaching work, and currently do research, scholarship, and teacher training. I work during the summers, I work on the weekends, I work at night, and there is nobody who has the right to tell me that I am lazy or that most teachers are lazy.
I don't think teachers think they are smarter or more relevant, as you say. I think that's a big misunderstanding between parents and teachers. They are simply more trained and sometimes more talented at teaching subject material. I also think there is a strong benefit to a student having multiple teachers - beyond the one teacher provided by homeschooling.
I'm sorry you feel you need to say "who do you think you are" - but I certainly understand your frustration with education. In my opinion it is the school system and not the teachers that is the problem. And in my opinion I think reform and innovation and more teachers is the solution, and not homeschooling, on the whole. Parents have the right to make their decisions. I simply hope that it isn't a decision made because the think all teachers have is "a piece of paper".
Most teachers are hardworking, and highly trained, talented, and under-appreciated.
No Aunt Lola, it is because you think you deserve more than what you give...and let me tell you a "degree" does not make a "teacher".... I guarantee your students cannot stand you...
I think I would feel significantly better about the idea of homeschooling if homeschooling parents received intensive training and support throughout the entire process of their child. Then I could see more benefits, certainly. Then I could see the homeschooling movement as a sort of move toward smaller, more local, innovative, community education. If there were dialogues continually between parents and teachers and students, and training.
And this is not going to come about by dismissing the credentials, degrees, training, experience, talent, and hard work of teachers. Nor by isolating one's child.
Yep. You've got us all figured out. We all took this career path so we could 1) get summers off, 2) it was the easy way out of college, and 3) we do not care one iota for the development of children or our society. Your dad and brother-in-law sure have you hoodwinked if you think they ever cared.
We love working in an industry where we are criticized, maligned, attacked, and insulted by people who are so much smarter than us. We love being threatened with losing our jobs each March 15. We love using old weathered textbooks, filing child abuse reports, and dealing with kids who snot all over their desks or pee or poop or bleed or vomit on us. We especially love it when we get yelled at by parents when we are just asking them to hold their child's hand as they cross the street. Oh, and we really love it when parents make excuses for their chlidren not doing their homework or even showing up for school. Yep, it's so fun!
Our jobs are so rewarding because we get those summers off. I am soooo glad I chose the easy way through college. This is a piece of cake!
One of our home school/charter school programs here is supervised by credentialed teachers and they weekly home visits. Also, two days per week the kids get together for field trips and group classes. I think that's a great thing for those kids and the parents, because they get to see the expert teachers provide instruction. They get some time to observe and the kids have time to socialize. It seems to work well. Funny, though...one of the teachers that works there put her child in my class last year.
Pish.... I am so tired of teachers saying that now they have too many students in the classroom... when I talked to my daughter's AP English teacher about how she had counted my daughter as "truant" in her class...yet my daughter was IN class..she stated how she has 25 kids per class...8 classes per day...and how could she possibly keep up with that... seems to me that is the same amount that we had when I was in high school and they somehow managed. I think you all feel you are under-appreciated.. but I think for your "low wages" ( I know that my husband's ex makes $65,000 a year, as well as her husband elementary school gym teacher makes $65,000 a year) you can hardly call that chump change for not even being able to teach her kids the alphabet!! I deal in banking and work with hundreds of people a month on refinancing and being able to keep their most expensive possession, their home....yet I make about a third of what teacher does...and I work all year long, 70 hours a week. I get a little tired of these so called teachers claiming they have it so bad. I don't mean to be so bitter Pish Posh but you have hit a nerve with me. :)
Me or Aunt Lola?
If it was one of us I promise you that we do give and will continue to give everything we have to being the best teacher possible for your daughter.
We all share the goal of wanting young people to have the best education possible.
I hope we can find a way to work together to provide the best education. We just have different experiences and opinions that lead us to decide that that is.
Get over it Aunt Lola..this is what we deal with in the real world every day of our lives. And trust me, my dad and my brother-in-law know what I think...and they would have to agree with me.
This post is both powerful and absolutely brilliant. You must be an outstanding teacher.
I am a fourth-generation teacher myself and spend most of my time with educators. Teachers I meet are all extremely dedicated, intelligent, caring people who truly love their students. This is why it really bothers me to see how strong anti-teacher sentiments are in this society. If people go to such extreme lengths as to deprive their children of secondary education, something must be really wrong in their attitude to the school system.
Well that is frustrating. Do you think your father and brother and law would feel offended if they felt that parents thought they did nothing and had nothing to qualify them but a piece of paper? I guess that is where I am coming from - a sense of exasperation and frustration because I do work so hard and I am involved as much as possible with all aspects of education. If a parent wants to home-school their child, that is their right. But to close the conversation by dismissing the ability, concern, training, qualifications, and experience of teachers is hurtful, and I think its a real problem.
I want everyone to have the best education possible. That is all.
Indeed. I work 65 hours a week minimum. I do not get my summers off, and never have. I have 12 years of teaching experience, and a doctorate. I have published in the field of teaching and pedagogy and won awards for my innovative use of technology and designing an information literacy curriculum. I work long hours and am insulted by parents who have no idea how much I care, how hard I work, or how good I am at what I do.
But that doesn't matter. I'm here to teach. I'm good at it - and consistently get positive feedback.
No matter what is thrown at me, the student will be my priority and I will approach teaching humbly and learn as much from them as they me. We can always be better teachers. And I promise concerned parents that I will do my best always, as I always have.
What is not okay with me is to dismiss my blood, sweat and tears, my work, my passion, my dedication and my commitment, as a piece of paper.
If it is offensive to some that in my personal opinion I don't think homeschooling is a good idea, so be it. I draw this purely from my experience and my research. Not from any attempt to be arrogant or condescending. Research and experience lead me to my opinions and I have the right to these views as much as a parent who is determined to be the one and only teacher of their child at home.
Ultimately, I simply want the student to have the best education. That matters to me a great deal, and nothing more. It is not vanity that makes me say this, but a faith in the hardworking people around me who have sacrificed much just to follow the calling to teach.
and you are "as a whole" criticized and maligned and attacked" because there are so few of you that actually mean something. I'm sorry for saying these words, but it has been my experience for SO many years... my son is 21 and in college, my daughter 17 and in high school, and I have a 5 year old starting in the fall. I hate to say that I have been smarter than the majority of my kids' teachers! I don't say that lightly! When they send things home full of spelling and grammatical errors it makes me wonder!! I would never home school my 5 year old, as I think the social aspect is very important, but for you to imply that every teacher is qualified and had MY childrens' best interest in mind is totally false, unfortunately. I do have respect for teacher's (as I said) but only the good ones. There are a lot of not good ones out there, I think you might agree...I get from your reply that you most likely are a good one. I mean no disrespect...other than what my children have already received in the public school system.
I understand, and I appreciate your candor. I can tell you that I make slightly more than half what your husband's ex makes and I have a Phd (I'm only saying that to illustrate that this isn't something I do for the money or cushy lifestyle).
25 students might not be too much, depending on the class. I know when I was in college (and I am drawing upon my experiences as a college rather than a high school teacher, so this may change things) I had much larger classes than that and I hated it. But I don't complain about my class sizes. I have a lot of students, but I do know each and every one of them and not just on a name basis, but I get to know them individually.
I'm not really about claiming I have it "bad." I LOVE what I do. I don't have it bad at all. I was trying to demonstrate the effort and work I put in - not to complain, but to defend myself or illustrate that I do work hard, because I feel that the sentiment of its just "a piece of paper" goes hand in the hand with the belief that I get summers off, work 40 hours a week, teach from the textbook, phone it in, and stink as a teacher. I am sure there are some teachers out there like that - as there are in all occupations. But I don't think its "most" teachers. And I do think that behavior is awful, when it is true. Nothing irritates a hardworking teacher more than a lazy teacher. I just don't think that's the case most of the time.
I wish I knew what the answer was to compromise, to make schools better. They need real work and there are real problems. I agree with you there completely. I see it as a structural problem that works against teachers and against students. I just don't see the benefits of homeschooling outweighing that right now.
I would love to see a compromise.
Thank you for your response Clarissa! It is genuinely appreciated!
That genuinely makes me sad that that has been your children's experience.
I don't think every teacher is a great teacher, but I work with so many great ones. We cry together, we work so hard together, we fuss and work and pore over every detail trying to be good teachers. Just as I'm sure parents do.
I hope we can find a way to bridge the gap and improve the problems we both see, so that education in our country is strong and top-notch.
We both want that.
There's no getting over your grandiose assumptions of an entire workforce (wait, only the majority you don't like) and your incredibly conceited tone. I, for one, don't want or need your respect, as I have none for you.
By the way, you improperly used an apostrophe.
Pish... first I will apologize, because clearly I am a little bit disenchanted by the education system that I am a part of. Or that my kids are a part of I should say. The fact that you make less than half of my husband's ex...and she is a first grade teacher (with a master's) and you have a PhD...I don't quite understand how that works. I think you are probably one of the few (or many...I don't know where you are from) that actually cares about the kids and giving them a good education. And I know it is not all up to the teachers...I do all I can with my kids...but when they tell me that the teachers do nothing...and don't teach....let me tell you that gets me in a tizzy....(as you bore the brunt...I apologize... :( ) Just even today, my daughter was telling me that one of her grades was half of what it should be because her teacher had not posted a quiz grade....which had equaled roughly 1/4 of her grade for the term... A quiz worth 50 points! 1/4 of her grade..I don't get it. I said earlier..I too disagree with home schooling.. for many reasons ( and my best friend home schools her son.. for all of the wrong reasons...) I just wish there were more teachers like you that were doing it for the right reasons. There aren't enough of you out there. And thank you.
Good job Aunt Lola...that was a test....
And when the "majority" fails... that is my concern as a parent.... I apologize for that.
I really appreciate your honest and totally understand your frustration. My post originally came out of that boiling frustration I felt reading a parent dismiss all teachers as "a piece of paper" and so I understand how your blood must boil too when you see the other side of the teaching spectrum. Because of these posts I have learned more about what drives a parent to become this frustrated with the education system. Also, that not all homeschooling parents do so for the wrong reasons, but because of genuine disenchantment with the educational opportunities otherwise available. I really do understand that. A child's education is a serious thing. I still think many parents home-school for the wrong reasons, and that even those who do it for the right reasons need training and support from educational services.
I wish I could make this better, and I really believe it can get better, if we all put our heads together and take advantage of all the educational opportunities available.
Thanks so much for contributing and for your honesty!!
and you don't hurt my feelings in the least bit... on the contrary, your response seems typical . Sorry Aunt Lola.
Aunt Lola....
Well Pish Posh... at first I was angry at you (and Aunt Whoever She Is) but I do understand what you must go through now a little bit, and I'm sorry I was so bitter. I never meant to sound like I was pro homeschooling---- I am not....just frustrated by the "actual" schooling that my children have gotten. Or have "not" gotten, if you will.. I know because of my dad...and brother in law... and TK Cellar, and Mr Morrison...and Miss Mussard... and Mr Morrison...( ok that is 4 and not 3...) that some teachers are priceless... and from what you say you care a great deal and I totally respect you for that. It's the other ones I can't help but have a problem with and I'm sorry :(
Aunt Lola...seems you hate your job....
You spelled "children" wrong... and really you sound like you absolutely hate your job...so.... yeah, you are not one of my "favorite" teachers.... so typical of the teachers I have dealt with....
I totally agree with the home schooling... was just very frustrated with the actual schooling.. because that is what I am involved in... but I wish the best of luck to you... :) And thanks for putting up with me tonight!!
No worries! I was a bit intense in my post. Thanks for sharing your views. I will keep it in mind too when I try to understand what needs to be fixed and other people's frustrations. Aunt Lola was over-heated too but she is a good lady and loves teaching more than anything in the universe.
I think if we all got together and talked I bet we would have a great chat and find common ground. It sounds like we all just want our kids to get the education they deserve. Thanks again and goodnight! Visit any time :)
Aunt Lola,
I respect your education, your drive and your dedication. We need more teachers like you, and I think your kids - and the parents of those kids like you too. I know I would. Thank you for your service.
Darlene
Excellent post.i'm wth you 100%.
Haha! That must be why I routinely teach the siblings of former students as per parent request. I have actually taught a father and now two of his children and a third next year. You are welcome to my classroom any time and I am sure I will give you a hug on the way out the door each day as I do all of my students. You sound like you need to see a happy, loving teacher at work. And maybe I'll give you some tickets for store on Fridays, too. But you have to finish your work first. :)
So I've been thinking about my anger at :)'s and Strangepegs' comments. I realize that this is the same feeling any group has when unfair, illogical, biased and offensive criticisms have been cast at them. Think about it: what if :) had said "I respect some black people, because they are hardworking and don't belong in gangs, but for the most part they are awful, predatory, subhuman welfare scum" ? Or what if strangepegs had said "I am more intelligent than all Mexican people and can do anything they do better?"
I think their comments about teachers may not seem as bigoted and inflammatory to people who are not teachers, but they are. I am a teacher, and so are my husband, my brother, my sister, my stepfather, and my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, three aunts, one uncle, and numerous cousins, including Pish Posh. These prejudicial and biased comments are offensive and unjust.
Pishy, I think the reaction from some home school parents is the same kind of feeling. You can't lump all home schooled students, teachers, and programs together and make assumptions about them as a group. That's just as offensive to them.
Heh... your response actually made me laugh. I love all the things that you infer from what I said that I didn't say at all. Or infer. Seems like you have some issues that have nothing to do with my response.
I didn't say that a "piece of paper" is what made you a teacher; I said I don't have the "piece of paper" that says I am. There are many reasons for this, and most of them have to do with the school system and how ridiculous and rigid it is. So, yes, I coult actually step into my kids classrooms, because I'm a good teacher, but I don't go along with the stupid crap of the school system, so I don't do it. At any rate, you shouldn't assume so much about what I'm saying in my short response, because you were incorrect about all of it. I didn't say any of my kids teachers are not good teachers just that I would be more capable in their classrooms. In effect, I am, actually, qualified to homeschool if I chose to do that. However, I feel that it's necessary for development for the child to be -in- the classroom even with a bad teacher. The parent should then pick up the slack at home. Mostly, I only ever had mediocre (or bad) teachers when I was growing up, but a few of them were great. I mean really great. Two of them changed my life, and that wouldn't have been possible being homeschooled.
Yes, a lot of teachers out there are -not- good at their jobs. They can't actually teach in any real sense of the word. A few can. But that's how it is in any profession. You have the few that are actually gifted at what they do and the rest do the best they can to mimic that. Striving to do that is admirable especially if you are striving after that. However, to most teachers, teaching is -just- a job. I've been in and around the school system to know that. It's those teachers that cause the outcry against teachers in general.
Anyway... maybe, next time, you should read more closely at what is actually being said before deciding you know what's not being said.
Oh, and I didn't say that I am more intelligent than -all- teachers, just these particular teachers. In fact, I hate working in the classroom, because I become the "go to" guy for anything the teacher doesn't know. Spelling, facts, whatever. It's annoying, and it doesn't happen with the other parents. More annoying still is having to be in the classroom and listen to the teacher go on about the "original 12 colonies" and not be able to say anything because you don't want to undermine the teacher's authority and, then, having the teacher tell you (later) that she's right by -virtue- of being the teacher. So, yeah, you tell me who's more intelligent.
Wow. You have just proven my point.
Yes, the point that you have the same attitude, that you are right by virtue of being the teacher. Just like a parent is right by virtue of being the parent. It's all hogwash, and you aren't doing yourself any favors. The more you say, the more teachers come off the way all these homeschooling parents keep saying they are. The fact that a teacher would teach that there were 12 original colonies and then claim to be correct on the matter -because- she is the teacher is wrong. You backing that up is also wrong. Always verify your information, even when you "know" you're correct, because, sometimes, you're not. But I can see who's always right in your classroom by your attitude.
And once again, you have proven my point. You have absolutely no idea who I am, how I teach, and what parents and students think of me. You have decided that I must be a particular way because I am offended by you. Do you see what you are doing here? You are demonizing ME. You are lumping all of us together. That's prejudice in its finest form.
LOL!
I was absolutely doing NO such thing. In fact, I made it quite clear that I was NOT talking about you or any other teacher I hadn't had personal dealings with. I didn't include you until -you- said I proved your point by giving a specific example of something that happened in my child's classroom. So, um, unless you happen to be my child's teacher, I was NOT talking about you. Until you defended her. But, you know, if you are my child's teacher... well, I really have nothing else to say except go out and learn your American History.
I think you both agree that homeschooling isn't the best option necessarily - and that is some common ground.
Strangepegs, you do seem to be generalizing based on your experience. If your experience tells you that your children's teachers are misteaching information or being defensive/controlling... that is unfortunate. But its not necessarily true of all teachers, or even most teachers. Just out of curiosity do you feel your children's school is a good school?
I think Lola is right that you are lumping people together. Your frustration comes out in a tone that seems condescending to teachers. Lola is an amazing teacher and a teacher teaching 12 colonies is sad, and shocking frankly, rather than the rule.
I imagine you are intelligent, from what I have read. My initial point though is that being smart doesn't mean one is automatically a good teacher. How do you know you are a good teacher?
I don't think Lola is at all saying she is right just because she is a teacher. I think she is saying that she feels education is important, and that many people seem to think they are qualified to teach, when they aren't.. just because they think they are.
As to the "piece of paper" bit, I know that wasn't your point either. My post was a reaction to someone totally different than you - who had posted that teachers only have a piece of paper.
I appreciate your reactions and contributions, both of you. I think your argument is essentially one of - what qualifies someone to be a good teacher? And respect for parents and teachers. Lola might be frustrated with the attitude of some parents, and Strangepegs might frustrated with the attitude of some parents.
Ultimately, you guys are both just rubbing each other wrong I think?
From knowing Lola, since she is my cousin, and from reading your posts Strangepegs, I know you are both very bright, very creative and passionate parents.
So perhaps we will agree that one problem that doesn't improve education is when parents and teachers have one or even 5 bad experiences with the other, and apply it to a generalization. Smarts don't make someone a good teacher, and some teachers are bad teachers.
To me, what bothers me most about what you said Strangepegs, is this:
"However, to most teachers, teaching is -just- a job. I've been in and around the school system to know that."
I very strongly disagree with the word "most". I would say "a small minority." It is not at all my experience that people choose the teaching profession to have "just a job" nor is it my experience that "most" of those working as teachers have that attitude and approach. Not at all.
So that is where I get frustrated.
When you say "in and around the school system" do you mean as a parent in one particular elementary school?
Thanks again for your responses and contributions.
Sorry, that should read Strangepegs is frustrated with some teachers (where I had written parents).
I'm starting a new reply chain because the old one is getting too skinny for my tastes.
I didn't want to get into this (because, really, it just doesn't matter, but you asked), but, when I say I have been in the school system, it is because I've been in the school system.
I worked as a sub for a number of years in Louisiana. I was the most requested sub at the schools I worked at because I was the only one that the teachers could actually leave real lesson plans for. [I even did an extended period (6 weeks) in a French class (I don't know French), and they asked me take on the job permanently (even though I didn't have a certificate and didn't know French), because I was doing a better job than the exiting teacher (who did know French). I turned them down, because, well, I don't know French.]
Most of the teachers I worked with viewed their teaching job as just a job and spent their breaks and lunch badmouthing their students.
I could go on, because this is not the end of my experience in the school system, but you probably get an idea.
Oh, I was the only sub (according to multiple schools) that they'd ever had that both the teachers -and- the students loved.
So, yeah, when I say I could step into a classroom, I'm not just talking out my butt, so to speak. I never said teaching was easy or that there aren't qualified teachers. However, most teachers are just like most people, merely adequate at what they are doing. Meaning they are -just- doing their jobs and look at it as nothing more than -just- a job. At least, in my experience, which is more extensive than the general parent of just dealing with whatever teacher their kid has.
Well, it would not be inaccurate to say that I am not frustrated with parents and their lack of involvement, too.
Well thank you for that response! I still disagree that it is "most" teachers. Let's take my campus now. It's a small campus and out of say 150 teachers (I do reviews of teachers and monitor low-performing teachers) I would save 5 were chronic under-achievers and 7 viewed it as just a job. I would also say that predominantly I have found at this campus, and the two other campuses I have worked, and the elementary school before that, "most" teachers were enthusiastic, well-trained, and dedicated. I am wondering... you know how when we get 100 compliments and 1 insult, its the insult we remember most? I wonder if the worst teachers haven't left SUCH a bad impression upon parents that they don't see it as "most" when it isn't necessarily most. I'm not sure, just speculation.
I do know there are teachers who frustrate me. One teacher I work with is extremely popular - but not for reasons that I think are useful to the students, and his pedagogy drives me nuts (no written assignments). So teaching is a mixed bag. As you say, in most professions there are omegas and alphas and most are in between - if that is an accurate paraphrase of an amalgamation of your comments. But my experience with teachers, and it is just my experience, although I've taught many places at many levels and attended workshops, seminars, conferences, degree programs, and written articles on new teaching strategies but still it is my experience, is that they are unlike most other professions. Most teachers I know, and work with, see teaching as a calling. A 24-7 calling. And one in which they continually strive to be better. Not for monetary gain, but because they want students to get the best education.
On the other hand, I am from the part of the country you are - and this is not to generalize about California education because I'm sure its better and worse than other places, and my teachers were not great. My high school was horrendous and my junior high was a joke.
I would be interested to see geographical location research, to compare states with achievements in education - not just how many graduate or standardized test scores - because those are problematic measurements - but how many parents in those areas choose to homeschool, how many parents are dissatisfied with the education their children receive, and how many teachers feel their job is a calling at which they continually strive to improve.
Thanks again for your feedback. One thing I have learned from this conversation is how deep the divide is between some parents and teachers.
I will say that a lot of experience with the education system was in Louisiana, and I'm sure that we don't need to mention how low down the list LA is on education. However, I have had no better experiences in Texas (where I went to college) and CA. In fact, CA makes a really big deal of the "piece of paper." And that's probably where the idea of the "piece of paper" comes from: the school system. It does a disservice to everyone involved. Although I am quite a good teacher, I'm not allowed to because I don't have the "piece of paper" that CA requires (although I was just fine (more than fine in LA)), and I didn't (a dozen years or so ago) want to go back to school to get that piece of paper when I was demonstrably qualified (I scored in the 99th percentile on the PSAT (I think that's what it's called, not sure if I'm remembering correctly)). What a waste of my time (and theirs). At any rate, when the school system reduces everything to a piece of paper, you can't blame the parents for mistaking that that is what it's all about.
Well, as one who has a doctorate from one of the top universities in the country, I have to say that I certainly respect the degree and what it represents.
Now that doesn't mean that I think that a degree makes you smart, or a lack of degree makes you unintelligent. It also doesn't mean that I think all doctorates represent good teachers, or that all untrained people aren't naturally good teachers.
But I do think its dangerous to trivialize the degrees, and that is what sparked the initial angst in my post - not just that I felt someone was trivializing my degree, but also my experience, training, commitment and talent.
You have mentioned several times that you feel evidence and experience and testing and so forth has demonstrated that you are not only of above average intelligence but also a natural teacher. Yet you are frustrated, as are many people, with the educational system.
What would you put in place? How else do we insure that people have proper intelligence, training, qualifications, and commitment, not to mention talents and enthusiasms, without degrees, certifications, testing, training, and experience?
Or am I misunderstanding you? From your vantage point, do you have a distaste in general for systematic and structural organization not only of education but other facets of life - and a general philosophical standpoint?
How do we prevent unqualified, untrained, ill-prepared, mis-educated people, whether teachers or parents, from educating our children?
There are flaws all around. To me, I see an ill-prepared parent who thinks they are qualified to teach their child and so home-schools their child as a FAR more dangerous and frustrating entity than an ill-prepared teacher who thinks they are qualified to teach a child. For one thing, there are checks and balances. Teachers can be monitored, switched, receive retraining and so forth. For another, a child will have multiple teachers throughout his or her education. Finally, the signs of a child's special needs can usually, in my opinion and experience, be realized more quickly and met more effectively in a school environment (by special needs I mean any particular learning issue a student struggles with).
Again, starting a new thread because the other one is too thin.
I have a degree. I just don't have a degree from -California-. See how that works? And I actually wasn't talking about degrees; I was talking about the piece of paper that allows you to teach: the certificate. There's a huge difference in those two things.
Having said all of that, I think I am now being misunderstood. To point back to my original post, I was saying that I am someone that would actually be -qualified- to homeschool if I chose to do that. I have experience, -and- I'm good at it. I'm also well versed in a large number of subjects. I have, actually, been hired to teach in a homeschooling unit (high school) which I did for a semester teaching pre-calc and English. What my original post was meant to indicate was that, although I am qualified, I choose to have my kids in school. I think home schooling is almost never the answer. Parents don't know what they're doing and often can't help their children (which is why I was asked to help out with the students I taught) not to mention that their kids end up with a very skewed view of the world from their lack of involvement with other children.
So, no, I don't have a better answer than public school, because home schooling is -not- the answer even in the face of "bad" teachers and a school system that's broken.
I must admit, however, that I do sometimes think that we might should resort back to education only being for those who can pay for it. At least for a time. It might teach American society in general to realize what they have. Or don't have, as it would be if we did resort back to private institutions only.
Yes perhaps I should rethink Disquis. It's been fine before but doesn't service long threads well does it.
I agree that I see WHY some parents would want to home-school their child, and I agree that I would probably be good at it or qualified - to a point. But I also agree that I choose not to because I think my child (my hypothetical child) would benefit from the school system. I see your point now is that even though you think you could do it and are qualified to do it, you still wouldn't home-school.
I'm afraid the lower socio-economic classes already realize what they have and don't have. I sometimes think we should give massive 5 year tax benefits to huge charitable foundations to flood the entire US with money in schools - money for equipment, for better teacher training, for smaller class size, for innovative pilot programs, and to equalize the playing fields between urban and rural and suburban schools and between private and public education.
I wish so much our school systems were just unquestionably top-notch. From kindergarten to grad school. Do you ever watch Ken Robinson talk about the learning revolution in education? You can google his site or watch his videos on TED.
No, I don't think they do realize it; otherwise, there wouldn't be so much talk these days about how higher education is overrated. And there would more steps taken by parents to make schools better rather than using them as a free daycare center.
No, I've never heard of Ken Robinson, but I'll look into it.
I have been meaning to watch Waiting for Superman for a while, but I just haven't made the time, yet.
The point is..all of the qualifications don't matter if you don't relate to the kids...and you can't teach.... I understand that people go to school to teach, and they get their masters and phd's... but if you don't know 'how' to teach...then it is worthless. I really, really don't mean to be rude when I say this. You can have the "power" to teach... but can you 'teach'..... that's the thing...
Aunt Lola... I'm back.. :) and I agree... and have thought about it.. the fact that you are on here arguing this point with me.. I am sure that you are actually a great teacher, and love what you do and actually make a difference in the lives of the kids that you teach. I totally appreciate that. I guess the point that I am trying to make is that there are teachers who have the same degree as you..and the same qualifications..but don't actually have the "knack" to teach children. And that is where our children suffer. I'm not sure what you teach..subject, grade, etc... but personal experience tells me that the school my child goes to (the same high school that I went to...many of the same teachers) the teachers are basically doing the least possible that they can do. That is where my anger is directed...not at you... so I apologize... I don't know if you saw what I posted last night, but out of all of the teachers that I had, there were three that impacted me. And as for my kids... I haven't heard of one that has. That is sad to me. Not your fault of course.... but sad none the less. I agree that kids should not be home schooled...simply for the fact that they need the social interaction that they get there. I wish there were more teachers like you that cared... but as you can see from just this site...there are parents out here that are not happy with the education system as it stands. I hope you understand. Not directed at you. And I would love to see you at work... I am sure you are amazing. :)
Thank you Aunt Lola... but what you have seemed to have missed, is that I do not home school my children..nor do I intend to. I just replied to a post of yours and I hope it explains my angst a little bit more. I don't mean to offend you... simply very frustrated with the education system. Not with you and I'm sorry I offended you. Like I said...I also have many family members, friends that are teachers.. and they know my views, they are confident in their ability as teachers and they know that I am not completely wrong. There are a lot of good teachers...there are a lot of bad teachers. Unfortunately a lot of the bad teachers work in my school district.. again I don't mean to offend you. There are two sides to each story. :)
And I am in no way a prejudiced person...so I would appreciate if you would recant your statements about being biased, and especially about black and mexican people. I'm sure that black and mexican people can attest that what you are dealing with on this site can certainly not compare to what they have dealt with.
It is really irresponsible of you to compare your frustration of my posts to what black and mexicans have gone through.... I hope you rethink that whole thing. I would never have thought to have compared that...not even in the same realm..... you must not have any of these people in your life.
Teachers.... in no way....have dealt with anything near what black people or mexicans have gone through...that is a totally hateful statement.
Oh no! I hope she responds to this. I don't want to speak for her but I interpreted her comparison to - the idea that it would be outrageous to make statements about Blacks and Mexicans and so she's frustrated that it is okay to make them about teachers. Maybe not the most useful comparison. But Lola, if it helps, is Mexican and has a black stepfather so she does understand the struggles these groups of people face I think. I hope she responds to your comments. I really want everyone to come to common ground and see eye to eye even when we disagree.
Anyway, thank you again!
I appreciate this comment very much. I am learning how frustrated parents are with the education their children are receiving. I am frustrated too. Many of my students were never taught grammar. And so then I have to lower what I should be teaching so that I can help them catch up. Sometimes what ends up happening is that college classes become simply improved high school classes, and it shouldn't be that way.
I appreciate that this issue gets everyone riled up - and I think it is just because the parents care and the teachers care - and education is such an important topic, it matters.
And let us not forget.. the most disgusting thing of all...the parent that is actually a TEACHER...and refuses to teach her own children a thing.... and I mean nothing.... that to me is disgusting....Amy Campbell....
Of course it was a comparison statement! The feelings that are conjured up when any group is attacked are very personal and offensive. What I said was, if you were to replace teachers with a racial or religious or ethnic group, your argument would immediately sound bigoted. Of course I don't think you are a racist - I don't even know you. But when anyone attacks an entire group of people, regardless of the reason, by making generalized and unfounded statements about them as a whole, it is most definitely offensive. Just like you said, get over it, right? That's what people deal with in the real world. Well that makes me sad. No one should be attacked the way you attacked people in my profession - and me, for speaking up for my profession. I must be your daughter's AP teacher, right? One of the bad ones. One of the ones you know must be terrible. Attack, attack, attack.
And, dear cousin, I know you would like all of us to come together and understand each other's perspective, but I should have stopped this conversation last night. I feel it is a big waste of my energy and time to try and get these people to understand. I prefer to work in my classroom, do my job, and receive the credit and thanks of the people in my life who can really appreciate what I do every single day. These people will never know me, and I will never know them. So be it.
By the way, I didn't think you supported home schooling. It didn't come up in your posts. You just think most teachers - except the good ones, of course - are worthless, and that's what I got out of it.
Can you cite this for me?
"Home-schooled students are more likely to be poorly socially adapted,
not understand holistic concepts or context, suffer from undiagnosed
learning disabilities, be emotionally stunted, and sometimes nearly
illiterate."
I love every word of this post! My SIL is homeschooling and my niece and nephew are suffering. My friends immediately recognize them as homeschooled. I wish she could read this but like others she will just be offended.
Thanks Kisatrtle! I was offended by the notion that *most* teachers are bad, lazy, stupid, useless and hide behind *paper* and that degrees are worthless and just anyone can teach. The truth is so completely the opposite.
My goal was not to come back by offending others - but by strongly making a stand against homeschooling without cause, without training, and without extreme justification.
Teachers don't feel offended that a parent would home-school their child. I think by and large they just feel sad or worried about that child. But teachers DO feel offended when a parent home-schools their child because they think the job of the teacher is a piece of cake and that simply being a parent qualifies them to be a teacher.
Home-schooling parents, on the other hand, often seem to be so easily offended, so completely strident in their views, it perturbs me. Not all of them by any means. But many. And my goal isn't to offend; this is more a plea from a teacher - parents don't just listen to other home-schooling parents, listen also to teachers and to those who disagree with you. Just listen to the concerns and objections, and at the very least approach the education of your child as a difficult task you probably cannot do alone - you are going to need an intensive support network, and your children benefit from diversity you cannot provide in your small insular community of home.
Sure. I meant in my years of experience, but I will find a study for you to read because it is also based upon my readings. I think rather than "emotionally stunted" what I should have said was developmentally advanced in some areas but rather stunted in others - and this comes I think from a lack of involvement in a diverse society and a world of peers.
The home-schooled youth I have worked with have been bright, likeable, wonderful teenagers.... and they almost always work better one on one with me - simulating the parent/child relationship - than they do with others in the classroom. And I feel strongly that it is part of my job to allow students to learn and give feedback to peers in their classes. Teamwork, group projects, and social communication are all valuable skill sets I help students develop and enhance.
Employers tell us that one of the things they are looking for in employees is people skills, the ability to work in groups, resolve conflicts, and communicate effectively in social situations. Now, this is not to say that ALL home-schooled children have zero social skills. They seem to work well in their small like-minded groups (siblings, parents' friends, their friends) but not in diverse settings - which are microcosms of the larger workforce.
But even if that wasn't important, they are less likely (although there are exceptions) to work well in classroom groups. A great deal of my home-schooled children have been likeable, bright, wonderful people - but not at ALL well-rounded. Many of them (although not all) have had writing skills at about the 4th grade level. They can think, they can answer questions, but they cannot spell or read, and have no diversity of information upon which to draw when answering contextual (rather than factual) questions. This affects their critical thinking abilities severely - and I attribute this to being taught by one teacher, one teacher's abilities, one teacher's information, one teacher's values, and one teacher's worldview. We simply can't see what others can see and we provide the best education to children when we work as a team.
A handful have had what I would call (out of irritation not disrespect) helicopter parents, and I connect this with the high levels of anxiety some of these students seem to face. I have also worked with parents who are not helicopter parents but simply involved and concerned.
I understand that some home-schooling parents do a wonderful job and are well-meaning parents. But for the most part, in my experience, and in most but not all of my fellow teachers' experiences, something about home-schooled teens stands out, and I don't think it seems to be a positive quality for them, at least not in terms of adapting to and being integrated into society. They always seem to remain on the outskirts, slightly askew, outside the center, sometimes maladaptive, like a part of them has been left in the dark without sunlight and has not grown alongside the rest of them.
This part is the part that a parent simply cannot provide. It is a normative function of adolescence to separate from one's parents. The students I work with in college that have been home-schooled for significant periods of their lives, particularly high school, seem about 4 years younger than their classmates emotionally and socially.
This is what I meant. I will look for further information for you.
Well I work in Louisiana so I understand Strangepegs. I'm not for homeschooling but when schools are really really bad or entirely full of police, like mini prisons, were you can get beat up by a guard for just about anything, I see why not to send kids there.
But my father was homeschooled for most of elementary school, lived too far from school and didn't have an address (the Depression); his mother was a certified teacher, though.
So when he finally gets to a school, the teacher wants to skip him up because he is academically ahead; he says no way, I have been deprived of the opportunity to socialize much with kids my age for five years, and I am sticking with my class!
...P.S. Great post, by the way and I have had similar experiences with homeschooled students.
Some of them defend homeschooling by pointing out that they had a lot of activities as part of homeschooling that did involve other kids.
I personally am glad to have gotten the skills I got for dealing with large organizations by going to school.
I do have one not homeschooling but "unschooling" friend (she does have M.A. in English) who says the public schools I attended were much more progressive than I realize, comparatively speaking, and that it's the whole authoritarian structure of the thing that she doesn't want to put her kids through. My own thought is that this is an opportunity to teach kids how to deal with that, but I don't know...
"Completely strident in their views" INDEED. My SIL can see no other side, but hers. In her mind, because she briefly taught 11th grade math before she had kids she is completely qualified to teach her first grader. Granted, her daughter does seem to be florishing acedemically, but she has trouble interacting with all of her peers, she doesn't behave in a typical fashion at birthday parties and she is not capable of making any independent decision. While she may be reading at an upper level, she is still drinking from a sippy cup. Enjoying your blog.
Thank you!
To the response that home-schooled children do get socialization by supervised play dates, I think that speaks for itself. Real socialization involves diversity and I doubt that play-dates can provide that. A lot of the socialization seems to be within a very small community of like-minded folks, often other home-schooled children, and it seems to be monitored, and supervised, in a way and to a degree I do not feel is developmentally healthy to a child.
This of course, is a parent's right though. I just think it has a measurable negative effect as a choice.
Regarding the authoritarian structure - again I think that I don't disagree that our public education needs improvement. Much of my education was about policing me rather than educating me. And as a smarter than average child, and a rebellious child, they really didn't know what to do with me. However, needing improvement doesn't mean needing dismantling.
It is my personal opinion that the millennial generation is too over-protected, too closely monitored, too supervised and limited by parental worldviews - and that produces students who are self-entitled, not hard-working, and under-prepared for the realities of living in a complex society. They tend to be highly community oriented, gadget friendly, and information-sharing students too, but again, they seem lopsided. Extremely talented in some areas, and extremely under-developed in others. So my response is that in fearing authoritarian aspects of public school, parents may be coddling their children FAR too much and producing children who cannot rely upon themselves or formulate their own views, children who struggle with situations in which they fail at something, and children who face additional challenges working with the society in which we live.
Neat story! I do understand parental concerns about poor education. I really do. My junior high years were atrocious and my high school was so bad I tested out 2.5 years early and started college instead. But that was unfortunate and I missed out a great deal and I'm a bit lopsided myself.
When something needs fixing sometimes we need to fix it, rather than throw it out.
Great way to put it. That's what I am trying to put across. Statistically on standardized tests, home-schooled children do very well. Especially for minorities (and that may speak to a whole other issue regarding class, location, etc and education quality). However, this is not what education is about - testing alone is not an adequate marker of a student's devel0pment as a student.
They may be reading Shakespeare, but drinking from a sippy cup. For a 15 year old, that is not healthy.
I think it often derives from well-intentioned but narrow-focused tunnel-visioned parents thinking they can dump information into a child's head and produce a well-rounded student.
People do not learn like that! We are not robots. Learning is a process. True cognitive comprehension isn't simply rote-information, but the ability to critically PROCESS information within a CONTEXT! Argh, now I'm getting all worked up again, I better stop.
AMEN Sister!! I just blogged about this in a much more crude and less educated way...lol
http://lgoogoogaga.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/facebook-status-updates-mom-of-the-year-edition/
Good Lord. The Arrogance of teachers. What you are saying would make sense if the public school system actually worked. The the quality of education at public schools is abysmal. Public education is now more about indoctrination then teaching. Home schooling is the best option when faced with a public school administration and tenure teachers that can't be fired. Teaching is not hard, it is not a profession, and anyone can do it. Although you are right not everyone can do it well
I don't have much faith in the experts. We have left the experts in charge for 50 years and we have a failure of a system. I usually don't comment, but this post was so over the top. You have a piece of paper. To assume that a piece of paper gives you more insight into a child then the parents is wrong and dangerous. The family is the first and most important mode of socialization not the state. People choose homeschooling because the don't like the crap "experts" like you teach.
And, you know.. out of all these responses to my post, even the ones that were totally irate with me and with teachers in general, no comment has infuriated me and all those who commented were able to have a dialogue with me while disagreeing - until you.
Besides the fact that you claim that I teach "crap" (actually I teach English), I think what really makes me most angry with you is that you assume that I'm a bad teacher just because you disagree with my opinion that in most cases long term homeschooling is a bad idea.
If disagreeing with your opinion is all it takes for you to say someone is a bad teacher who teaches "crap" and that anyone can do her job, I'm starting to see why you're so angry. You have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm a good teacher, I"m a highly experienced, well-trained, passionate, and hard-working teacher. I constantly put students' needs before my own. I work long hours, I earn low pay, I continually strive to be better, I am reviewed constantly to positive acclaim, and I care very much about my students and about what I am doing. I do it all because its important. And I've written this post because it is important, to me, after all I've seen working at all levels of education, to say it. Your disagreement with me on this point of view gives you no right to make slanderous remarks.
I think it is unfortunate but perhaps predictable that this post would be seen as an attack on parental freedom, rather than a defense of standardized education. It's firmly worded, but a response to a very broad criticism. That's clear to me.
It's a courageous post, and deserves attention.
Indeed. It is a response to the idea that a) teachers do nothing whatsoever b) a solid education only requires a good intention. I think it is far more complex and far more difficult than that.
IF parents want to homeschool their child I have no problem with that. That is their right, and I accept that.
Parents who choose to homeschool do so for all sorts of reasons! Some do it because their child has a severe disability, because of their family's religious or cultural beliefs, because of their education, and sometimes because they are concerned about the type of education students get in public schools (although private and alternative schools are still options). SOME parents may do it because they are either afraid of losing total control over their child or they are afraid of the exchange of ideas.
I assume MOST parents, however, do it with good intentions. My purpose was not to attack them for their choices, but to defend myself from attack, and to throw out another voice into the conversation so that at the very least parents who are considering homeschooling take a teacher's perspective into it. I don't know where people get the idea that "most" teachers don't care about education but I certainly do.
I accept that some people don't agree with me and that is their prerogative. What I don't accept is the claim that I'm a bad teacher for having this opinion, or that most teachers don't care, don't work hard, are totally replaceable by any random parent, or that it doesn't take experience, training, guidance, support, talent, and ability to teach. Just ask any bored or frustrated person who has a bad teacher - whether its a parent, a friend, a coworker, or a teacher. The idea that one doesn't need a strong education to be a strong teacher is ridiculous.
I think foreign language education is an important part of education. I wish it were taught from the beginning. At the very least, young minds should be exposed to it by high school. I do not sprechen Deutsch. I would not have the audacity to presume that I would be a good teacher of the German language to my 17 year old child. I would want them to be taught by a native German speaker who is also trained in language education.
I see this analogy crossing over to other subject material as well. I am fairly decent at math, but I have no idea how to teach it. I would not presume to be a qualified math teacher just because I have a college degree and took a college math course.
Similarly, the average person who has received only a high school education is not qualified to teach high school! By their own accounts, parents here have suggested that public school is inadequate. To turn that around, the implication is such that those with a public school education alone are probably not the best trained or best educated people to teach. More is needed. It is unfortunate that our school systems are not doing what they should in key areas. It is unfortunate that parents are so frustrated; teachers are frustrated too.
However, this does not mean that because the system is perfect the total lack of a system, of support, of training, is totally irrelevant. For my part, I support reforming the system rather than advocating for a mass wave of homeschooling.
Zut alors! Mais oui! C'est vrai! This is my point. What I was originally responding to was out of fear that parents can't accept their own limitations and end up finding out that they can't actually properly teach their child - or they never find this out, and their child comes to college with maladjusted uneven skills. All I was trying to do was call attention to my experience. I think it is a kind and wise thing to do as a parent to allow your child to work with others who know more than you do in certain areas. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable teaching (helping with homework, yes) my child anything but reading, writing, and literature.
I too am wary of destroying a flawed system because it is flawed, rather than replacing or improving upon it. I wish homeschool parents would spend this energy helping to improve rather than impede the curriculum.
Anyway you said it better than me - so I wont say more.
I had a lot of feelings about this post, and most were off topic, so I'm putting them on my own blog. I would like to say a few things, though:
1. Just to offer some anecdotal evidence to counter yours: I was homeschooled. I graduated Summa cum Laude with excellent recommendations, and with no particular trouble. (To my knowledge I was never "read" as a homeschooler by anybody.) I know at least 3-4 others (at other institutions no less) who did equally well.
2. That said, there's a common misconception that "homeshooling" always means "everything taught by a parent." In my experience, this is a recipe for failure. Successful homeschooled students nearly always teach themselves. The parent is there to help select curriculum, act as a taskmaster, grade tests, do recordkeeping for state (where required), and only occasionally help teach a subject they specialize in. Tricky subjects like a foreign language or calculus usually require enrolling in a community college, correspondence course, or something comparable. The only students who will succeed are those who are both motivated and capable of teaching themselves by reading textbooks, watching prerecorded lectures, and so on; in fact, proper homeschooling is a great deal like taking an online university course. Homeschooling is, quite simply, not for most students, but it works very, very well for a few of us. There are downsides, to be sure (grading English papers is especially tricky if neither parent is has experience with that), but the upside (it's very efficient - ironically leaving time for more socialization and other extracurricular activities) is often worth it.
So, everything you say is true in general. It's especially horrible in the case of parents who homeschool their children for religious reasons, to protect them from the rest of the world. Quite frankly, they've given the rest of us a bad name. They are frequently covering up abusive behavior, and in the worst cases are literally a cult.
Hi Brian, thanks for responding and I will check out your blog!
Thank you for sharing your story. I have a friend who told me that he knows a handful of successful homeschooled people he went to college with too. I definitely don't think we can make any 100% generalizations about anything. I think if we take my experience and your experience, and put them together - what we can say is that IF a student is going to be homeschooled, it should be with adequate resources, for the right reasons, and in the right way, with the knowledge that it end up poorly if not properly attended to, and if it is properly done it can succeed, as in your case.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention that certain subjects are best not taught by the parent, and these tend to be things like English, Math, Languages, and so forth. This is one of many reasons I get frustrated with people like the commenter who said parents don't like the "crap" I teach. My point is that I do not teach crap. I teach courses in things that the average person is not qualified to teach by a long shot. We don't need to lower our grammar, syntax, clarity, development, and critical thinking standards in this country any further, believe me. Once a child gets past spelling and penmanship, it becomes a difficult subject to teach. It saddens me to have someone tell me I teach "crap" and yet their own writing demonstrates that they are not particularly qualified to teach the "crap" I teach. I'm not talking about wounding my ego - I don't care what people think. I'm talking about a dangerous trend to disregard and trivialize academic learning - and that's the last thing that benefits our children.
I agree with your last statement very much. I don't think that's the majority of cases and I'm not at all saying most homeschooling parents are like that. But the ones who are... they are scary indeed.
I'm curious to hear why your parents chose to homeschool you. Were you originally enrolled in a public school? Did they find the education lacking? They sound pretty neat to me - and they sound like parents who just wanted the best for their child, and were willing to be tolerant, open-minded, and serious about replacing one structure with another structure - not with nothing but textbooks and 1 parent.
How did you get recommendations? Was it because you took community college classes and so forth?
I don't mind differing opinions on this or those who disagree with me. It's my blog and I spoke from my heart. And I didn't do it to be a jerk. I did it because I care SO much!! (thank you for sharing your views!!)
A genuine thanks for your response!
Jb, thank you...you have said so eloquently what I had tried to say last week, but anger took over. I think that PishPosh...you are most likely a great teacher..and we all know now that you have "mounds of degrees and certifications and paperwork" that show you went to a great university and have a PhD in teaching and that you are a great teacher.... but I think the point that you are missing...is that there are thousands of people out there with the same qualifications for "teaching" our children....yet they can't TEACH..... it's not meant in offense to you personally. You in fact stated that you were disgusted with your high school and dropped out.... you can just imagine what some of us, as parent's , are feeling about our own children's education. And I will have to say that a lot of parent's decision to home school...does not have to do with the fact that they think that they are great teachers, rather they think they are better teachers than what their children are dealing with. Again, it's nothing personal, we all know what kind of degrees you have.
One Day...with all due respect...your child is in first grade. AGAIN...I do NOT agree with home schooling...I could not do it...nor could most people that I know do it...the problem that I have...(and it is NOT with PishPosh or Aunt Lola...) is that the teachers that my children have..are doing a less than adequate job of TEACHING.... I don't know how to get that point across any more accurately!!!! It does not have to do with degrees...( they all have one or two or three) it does not have to do with certificates... it has to do with BEING ABLE TO TEACH!!! THAT IS IT!!!! WHAT don't they understand...it is very frustrating to me...as a parent... that we send our children to public schools and that this is what they have to contend with. A lot of mediocrity. Trust me..I could quit my job and stay home and be able to teach the basics. I am a smart person believe it or not...but I am not a "teacher".. I couldn't do what they should be getting in "school". For example my daughter is in Spanish III.. she is getting nothing from her teacher. I know enough Spanish to get her through it...I know her teacher knows way more than I do, but is unwilling to help my daughter with what she needs help with ( I have asked...my daughter has asked...I have talked to the principal!! ) No help. It's frustrating to know, that there are such good teachers out there...but there are equally bad teachers, and you have no control over which ones your child is actually going to get. This has been my ongoing problem for 17 years now..and it's about to start over when my five year old starts school in the fall. Just very frustrating and upsetting. But again, no offense intended.
I am saddened to hear of your frustration.
Please understand that I do not want to argue with you about your own experience, or the experience of many frustrated parents. It's not that I don't believe them or take them seriously. Believe me, I do. Students are coming to this class with 6th grade reading/writing levels. This is terrible. I'm absolutely in agreement. And also I should say I'm not just against homeschooling. Dual credit (taking college classes in high school) also infuriates me. And its part of my job to supervise this whether I like it or not. SO MUCH of the education system frustrates me so deeply and on many different levels. I want very much to improve it. But I STILL don't think (and I know you have agreed on this) that homeschooling is the best answer in most cases.
Anyway, if nothing else please know that I do hear you regarding your frustrations. But to me its like finding you can't type as fast as you want, so you cut off your hand. That doesn't make sense to me. That may be a bad analogy. I'm pretty sleepy.
Again, it is not that I believe the degree is the heart of the matter. I mentioned it in my post because I had read someone's post who had asked the question "do you need a degree to be a good teacher"? And in terms of education, yes of course you do. And of course you ALSO need more than this. You need teaching skills plus training. I quite agree with that. But the post I was responding to seemed to imply that a person only needed good will and some love. And that's simply not enough.
Goodnight.
PishPosh..it's :) .. I hope I didn't upset you in my earlier post.. I truly understand your side... and your disagreement with homeschooling.. I again just can't stop posting my disappointment with the schooling that my kids have been allowed.. which happens to be one of the "best school districts in Ohio"... please know I really mean no disrespect to you, and if it weren't for your wonderful blog I wouldn't even be able to voice my loudmouth opinion. Which is funny because I am very quiet in real life. :) So thank you... and you have a very good site here... I really do appreciate you.. :) :) I get so fired up though!!! That's a good sign that you are getting people riled up...which is something that I think is needed...on BOTH sides... you have a good night and a good day tomorrow. :) Thank you.
I like your analogy you can't type so fast or you cut off your hand... and go to sleep...it's late... I would like to later hear your thoughts on the high school AP classes..or the one's where they get college credits. I'm just curious..I promise not to fight you. ;) Probably won't be back on here for a couple of days. I need rest. :)
I'm sorry Aunt Lola. I initially got fired up with the comments... I understand yours fully.. and I really do apologize. I have actually felt bad all week..I don't know you and did not mean to generalize... I was just upset with the state of what my district's education is... (even though it has been given the best possible grade) I know you don't owe me anything, but again I did want to apologize.. I think pishposh has a good thing going here. I wish you a great rest of the week... and if anything you guys have inspired me to me more involved..so I thank you for that. Good night, and I am sorry again!!! I just feel so bad that I personally offended you...that is not who I am, and I truly apologize. I understand if you don't accept.
It's awful that your children are not being served by the system. I hear how frustrating it is to feel that their time might be wasted, and that you don't have the opportunity to do what you can for them. I get that.
I really hope that your situation improves. There must be other teachers there that your five year-old might get that might be better.
I feel strongly that there are many people involved, not just the teachers that won't deal with you, and that the system is still the best option.
Yes, at times it may be McDonald's vs. Home Cooking, but I have had some lethal home cooking, and can't say anything general about it.And I don't have the time or money to do it 10 months at a time.
I feel fortunate to be so confident in my son's current school environment, and hope I don't change my mind as time goes on.
Good luck, and my best wishes for things to improve for you.
Hi there. That's okay. Vent away. Tell us more about your disappointment - can you give us examples of the things that cause you alarm, frustration, disappointment? I believe you that they are there.
I am very quiet in real life too. I understand. People who are more comfortable expressing themselves through writing often have a lot to say. You are always welcome to comment here!!
So far we've heard from frustrated parents in Ohio, Louisiana, and California. I also hear the same thing from parents in the midwestern state that I live in. I would like to hear more examples of what is frustrating exactly.
The parents commenting here are very intelligent. However, I had one student in my class yesterday complain about her daughter's teachers, as she has every right to do, saying she could do a better job as a teacher. I was flabbergasted though because generally the teachers she was referring to are well liked by other parents, and no offense to my student who is great to have in class - but she is at the lowest level in my class, in her writing, in her comprehension, her history, and she has blurted out so many ignorant and stereotypical, incorrect things. So in HER case and I am NOT saying this is true of the parents commenting here, her perception of the failure of her child's teachers is really related to her own lack of education.
So what I want is to separate the smart parents, the parents who legitimately have concerns and complaints about their children's teachers, like you, so that I can understand some examples of what their complaints are, in contrast to the parents who make complaints that are unjustified. For example, the post I read somewhere which inspired my post, was ready to homeschool her 5 year old child rather than enroll him in school because she just ASSUMED her child would not get adequate play time, break time, recess, or enough attention, She never once spoke to a teacher or a school official. Not once! Someone in her area informed her that children get THREE breaks a day and the teacher-student ration was 1-7. So her fears would have been allayed if she'd just bothered to check! And it revealed to me that her real motivation for wanting to homeschool was her own personal unreadiness to let go.
Anyway, back to your sentiments I would love to hear your examples - not because I don't believe you, because I DO, and I feel that you are wanting to get them off your chest! Like I said I had bad experiences in my high school.
Here is one example of poor teaching: I was a bit disruptive in high school because of my homelife and because I was not being challenged enough. So I was removed from my class and put into an honor's english class and given a reading list. I thought it was the weekend reading list, so I read it all over the weekend and wrote some papers. I came back to class, handed it in, and was told to leave the class. They kicked me out because it wasn't the weekend reading list: it was the semester reading list. They took that as arrogance. Also, do you know what was on the reading list? They didn't know what to do with someone like me. So I tested out and went to college - which is precisely what I now want to prevent from happening. I missed out a great deal on not having a solid high school education and it totally crippled me academically and made it that much harder as I worked my way that much harder through college.
If I had been homeschooled in that situation, which I suppose I essentially was since I was removed from school and placed on independent study, it would have been even worse if that had been the case instead of going to college early. Neither of my parents, who are both very smart, are very good teachers. They are good at what they do - a nurse and a programmer, but not at teaching.
Thanks again for writing and have a great day
I just spent forty-five minutes writing a three page response. It was just eaten.
I cannot put into words my frustration right now.
I will therefore leave a quick sum up in case I fail to grow patience to retype it again.
1) I am glad my post sparked this, although I do find you made many assumptions, which hopefully the comments have enlightened you on.
2) I agree with Brian's #2.
3) Ironically I feel public school teaches less critical thinking but more regurgitation - your feelings on homeschooling.
4) I have had good, bad, mediocre, and phenomenal teachers. Each one had a piece of paper and was qualified. It did not mean they could teach. I believe the passion and ability to teach cannot be taught.
There was so much more. Hopefully when my ire lessons about the glitch and my children allow me 45 previous minutes, I will rewrite it.
Precious.. not previous...
Also, the post was a question more about me, not you.
The "needing a degree to be a teacher" was about my skill, my level. I have been the predominant teacher of my children up to this point. I know my son's learning style (still trying to figure it out with my two year old), I have learned what works and what doesn't.
It was meant in no way to belittle those who have the piece of paper.
You have passion. You obviously care.
Many do not.
Many with that same piece of paper claiming they are qualified, fail at teaching.
Many do only what is required, they do not try to teach a child to think.
I am not saying most or all. But many. Out of seven teachers each year from 7th grade on, I would say perhaps one each year was amazing. Another good. Most were average and scraping by. A few taught me nothing and tried to teach me incorrect things.
This was in a "good" school.
If all teachers had your passion, the public schools would be a better place.
Oh my gosh! I hate that - I am SO sorry you lost your post. I know that feeling, when you pour your heart out, and say just what you want to say... and its gone! How infuriating! So sorry to hear that.
It definitely goes to show you are passionate about this issue though, and that's a good thing. A child's education is so important.
I am so sorry you have had dissatisfying teachers. I wonder if you could give me an example of "many do only what is required, they do not try to teach a child to think." I want to see it from your eyes.
I spend so much time with teachers who are passionate. I just got done having dinner with some coworkers and all we talked about was teaching. We live and breathe it. And my cousins who are teachers are the same way.
I do remember having bad teachers but I just so seldom actually work with bad teachers that the frustration I'm getting from parents really surprises me.
So in high school my teachers were "bad" teachers partly because I had special needs they could not incorporate (I was well advanced of my grade level). But partially it was because the students were so poorly behaved, and so poorly educated from junior high. In other words it just snowballs - a bad education in 1st grade lowers the 2nd grade which lowers the 3rd grade so by the time you get to 9th grade they are years behind.
Another reason they were "bad" teachers was probably, I could see then, that they should have already retired, that they were probably overworked and underpaid, and that they couldn't discipline the children in the class - so that the entire class became about discipline.
You see I truly believe that almost all teachers with few exceptions start out passionate and sincere and dedicated to a profession - and the system really demoralizes them. I think that is when you might get a teacher who doesn't give it their all. But the teachers I know, from 1st grade to 6th grade to 10th grade to college, everyone one of them is far more passionate about their job than any of their spouses and so forth. It is their identity. It is their driving force. They try to be better all the time, and they are never "off the clock" so to speak.
So I am baffled by all this.
But the regurgitation is a problem, whether at home or at school, I agree. I think homeschooling can fall prey to that because it is lacking the structure of the school system and I think the school system can fall prey to that with bad public school reform policies like NCLB.
We need a serious educational reform, I agree with you.
Post any time!
But if you are teaching college kids, that have never been taught grammar...don't you see that as a problem in the education system? "and no piece of paper will ever explain how hard I work when you decide to do my job, and fail." Again. I don't agree with home schooling. But don't you think some parents out there are saying the same thing about teachers? "When you do your job and fail?"...I know you don't like parent's to take over the job as a teacher....but what if they feel that there is no better choice...when the teacher's have failed?? I know it is rare that a parent will take their child out of school because of the teachers...I think more likely because of bullying, etc... but your quote above, could equally be a parent...because no one will love a child like a parent..and no one will try to do what they think is best for that child, but a parent. It may be the wrong decision..but it is their decision, nonetheless.
One Day...I appreciate that, thank you :) It's just frustrating, because I know that there are good teachers out there...there are also several bad ones. I don't think it has so much to do with administration, other than they are the ones hiring these teachers.... but for certain teachers to be so bold to say that they totally disagree with a parent's decision to home school.... I think generally the parents are not confidant of the teacher..or they feel their child is being bullied..and the teachers or administration won't listen to them.... I don't have these problems per se... but I can understand it... why can't the teachers understand as well. well.l.
Thank you that is so good to know.. I was wondering as my daughter has some AP classes that she is taking as a junior...(I took some my senior year I remember..) but I don't feel like they have the same meaning as they did when I was in high school. Like..anyone can take these classes...and I hate to say..anyone can teach them... in particular her AP English teacher is the one I have a huge problem with...maybe because I was an English major (believe it or not). You also said, that you would like examples of what we are not happy with the teachers about... and I would have to say that in general the teachers in my daughter's high school...basically are not teaching... ! That is my problem. There is no homework.. (when my daughter complains that there is no homework, that is an issue. ) She says that they actually don't DO anything in school. They have a couple of quizzes, and then their finals...no homework. Weird. To me. I have talked to the principal..he says it is that they are trying not to bombard the kids with too much homework. But when you have two quizzes a quarter, and one test...but no homework throughout the quarter???? I do not understand how this is helping them. She tells me how they do absolutely nothing in school.. she CRIES because she is so frustrated!! My son who is older..was always "gifted"...and he never complained as much... but I know he was definitely bored with his education... and still is...in college..anyway.. my daughter is far from a drama queen.. that's why I think I am so upset about this whole thing... she just wants to learn, and is not being given the opportunity to do so... at least she can swim...that is what I will be watching her do all day tomorrow.. thanks Pish Posh!!! :) so
I thought of something else.. (and my husband will be so mad at me that I'm up again all night with this, lol) but first I wanted to comment on what you said about when you were in school and w ere given your reading list..that brought back so many memories for me, as I did the same thing!! I'm sorry that you were condemned for that..that truly breaks my heart. The only teacher that I had and respected loved me for reading EVERYTHING.. (we are also still friends on FB, lol) but I thought of another thing... my daughter is on the swim team... which takes a huge commitment. They practice every morning at 5am.. they have dryland practice after school for three hours.. so they work out essentially 5-6 hours per day. Her first class of the day is an ACT prep class..in which my daughter is tired... she is passing this class ( it's a pass/ fail class) yet her teacher yells at her every day that she needs to get her priorities together and not be so tired in his class. She tells him that she is in swimming, and he yells at her more. Now, as a parent that does NOT agree with home schooling, because of all of the other things that school allows, this kind of thing really pisses me off....as this is one of the main benefits of going to an actual school, is to get out of it everything you can. If education is not it, than you should be able to get everything else. She is in every club..she is a well rounded student..I just don't think she is getting the most important thing, which is
education....
I had some crappy teachers, and I know that that's like. I'm sure I wasn't easy to teach, but a small amount of inspiration would have gone a long way with me. Make the subject relevant to me instead of just mandatory.
Too many teachers in high school were just teaching by rote; I remember one incompetent English teacher who wrote nine blackboards of small-print notes for us to copy every class.
That and the odd test were the extent of his involvement, except for self-justifying speeches every now and again. He used to word "irregardless" at a parent-teacher evening and my mother called him on it immediately, being all about the one-up and not having a long-view.
He vilified her for years to successive classes, including me in the story, as arrogant and undeserving people he had to deal with. Didn't mention the word, though. So I laugh about it.
The math teacher who could not explain what trigonometry was useful for, lost my confidence, and I gave up on what would have been an interesting part of math.
I majored in English Lit, so the one teacher didn't discourage me, but the other did. So much else affected who would teach me and what I would learn that it is difficult if not impossible to assign responsibility to how much I learned and where I am now.
School is not a practice before real life starts for your child; it is an immediate battle to take the best of what is offered and usher your child through as much as they will let you.
I know that it gets tough sooner than we are all ready for, and you can't manage all of it. Your child, their teachers, the school administration, they all can make it impossible for you to help.
That's got to be the toughest transition to make before you're ready; to accept that you can only offer and not mold any more.
But we have to keep offering. And we have to give every advantage. And those five really decent, inspiring teachers in my experience were worth the whole trip.
Students respected them; they were "A lot more work, but totally worth it to learn from." That also happens in a school with many staff who don't care. Students connect, and teachers teach. Focus on what works, if you can find that.
I try to be positive about the world, as much as my experience has been pretty mixed. I want to encourage my child to join it, rather than resent it, as I was taught.
I don't know :)'s situation, nor Kelly K's. It has to be rough for them. I really hope they can find something that works for them either way.
This is one of the most vigorous and educative blog posts I have ever read. I am following it avidly.
I expect to vet and supervise my son's playdates as he goes on for a few years; he's not free to go where and when he chooses yet, at six years old.
I would want to know who is supervising, and might have some concerns -- hopefully not narrow-minded ones.I guess we'll see what happens as the years pass. He already has several "girlfriends", so that's going to be interesting.
Wow! Thanks for sharing that. I can't believe you had a teacher like that. Or, I wish I couldn't believe it.
Oh, well since I teach college I have experience with parents doing it to adult children (18 and up) but I was really referring to older teenagers rather thsn 6 year olds.
This is getting very narrow. I'm going to start a new thread at the top.
":)" said "But if you are teaching college kids, that have never been taught
grammar...don't you see that as a problem in the education system?"
I do see it as a problem in the education system. I have said many times on here that I know there are problems in the education system... but I still think its important for children, for many reasons, to stay in the system. I also think its important not to blame teachers for things like this when it is the system/administration. It isn't that teachers choose not to teach grammar. I do not blame them. The curriculum may need revision.
"But
don't you think some parents out there are saying the same thing about
teachers?"
I do think so, but I don't think that makes them right. I sympathize with parental frustration but I don't think they seem to be locating culpability in the right places or coming up with helpful solutions.
"I know it
is rare that a parent will take their child out of school because of the
teachers...I think more likely because of bullying, etc..."
Is that true?
"because no one will love a
child like a parent..and no one will try to do what they think is best
for that child, but a parent."
I disagree with you here. I know what you're saying but I know plenty of teachers who love their students and dedicate their lives to them and plenty of bad parents. Of course I do also know there are bad teachers and great parents. But most importantly "love" isn't the issue here. What's best for the child is at issue, and homeschooling, in my opinion, is rarely what is best for the child. For myriad reasons... homeschooling insulation of the child, lack of support structure and so on.
"It may be the wrong decision..but it is
their decision, nonetheless"
I agree with that. Many people see homeschooling as so problematic they do not think the parent should have the legal right to remove their child from education, and in fact some see it as abuse. Some European nations do not allow it. I do not agree with that - I don't think homeschooling is abuse or that the state should be able to mandate it. But I do think it is destructive in many ways. Yet I still agree it is a parent's right to do it.
I do sympathize with a great deal of the parents who choose it and the reasons why they choose it. Okay.. off to read your other comments now.
I will respond at the top in a new thread
Brian seems exceptional to me, both in his experience and the success he has had. That is my feeling, based on my personal experience (not professional) and opinion of how well people learn in general.
Self-guided learning, even according to a set curriculum, does not work for me, nor would it work for my son, as far as I can tell.
Brian: I am fascinated to hear about your experience, though. There must be some reasons it worked so well for you, even assuming you were a capable, enthusiastic child.
I know I'm still arguing my point a bit, but I really want to know what you think was key about how well it worked for you. I will take all the advice I can get.
Thanks.
I take your point.
I had a few really good ones, too. I don't mean to be negative, but I want to illustrate that I'm not in denial about the problems people are finding.
I still think that it's folly to throw out the good with the bad and call giving up a positive solution. Too often it's avoidance of learning to deal with these difficulties that prolongs the problems.
The system could benefit by parents who are finding it difficult speaking up rather than leaving.
Me too, Brian. I appreciate your contributions and would love to hear your story.
I removed myself from high school when I was 15 because it was so awful. I had been skipping classes and "educating myself" by reading everything I possibly could in the library all day. Isn't that awful? I was still going to school but was totally convinced (and I am certain that I was right) that I could learn more by myself. Finally I removed myself from school by testing out of it (GED) when I was 14 or 15, and did independent study for a few months. That was a joke too. It was far too easy and I wish SO MUCH that I had had a better high school experience and teachers who could teach me.
So I enrolled full time in college instead. It was a great college. But I am pretty bright and I am still convinced that although the high school teachers weren't doing a good job, and I was trying to do a better job, that I was not the best teacher. I needed 20 other mature and trained teachers. I was just making do with what I had. Plugging up the holes in a sinking ship, so to speak.
I wish very much that instead of educating myself, I had had teachers like I finally did at college. And it was a junior college and it was fantastic. Better perhaps than my later college. But educating myself is like Donald Rumsfeld's "known knowns" and "unknown unknowns" - you can't know best what to teach yourself because you don't know it. In my opinion. And yes, I just paraphrased Rummy in an education post - never thought THAT would happen.
Anyway, OneDay asked to hear from you, Brian, not me, so I will shut up :)
I agree completely.
I wish we could all get together, parents and teachers alike, and collaborate to make education better.
Let me put it this way. When parents have complaints, what are they?
How teachers teach - no homework, rote information, yelling at their students, not knowing correct facts (12 vs 13 colonies, using the word "irregardless")etc. What else?
Then, what can parents do about these concerns besides homeschooling their child?
What steps have parents taken to remedy their dissatisfaction, as alternatives to completely removing their children from educational systems, and how might teachers, parents, students, and administrators each take responsibility and work together to find better solutions? That is what I am interested in!!
I've read Brian's blog entry about this and it's interesting, and worth reading.
It's a curious coincidence that you both are the exceptions to each others' arguments, at least as far as your backgrounds go.
I responded to his post. I had a big typo in it that suggests teachers hate school, when I meant teachers teach students who hate high school - a fairly SIGNIFICANT typo but hey maybe it was a Freudian slip. Ah to heck with it all. I have about 5000 papers to grade this weekend and I am perfectly happy for anyone here to grade them since I'm just a lazy worthless teacher.
I went to a bit of public elementary school, was very, very bored (mostly due to reading a enormous number of books), and the school and teachers weren't very good, so we tried homeschooling just as an experiment. It worked very well, so we kept it up. As you guessed, recommendations were from various outside teachers.
Curiously enough, my brother did basically the opposite: he started out homeschooling (because I was), then enrolled in high school because he wanted to be around more people and play team sports at a competitive level. He's doing extremely well academically too.
Also: you certainly don't come off as a jerk! In fact, you sound like a really excellent teacher.
Ugh, apparently composing elsewhere and pasting in leads to mucked-up formatting, sorry about that.
Hi Brian, thanks for sharing that! That is very interesting. You see I agree with you, public schools are challenged by the different learning levels - classes have some students who are far behind where they should be and some students like you who get bored so easily. I think we need more teachers.
Interesting also how different siblings are. I was reading something the other night about a school that allowed homeschooled students to play on their sports teams so the students could benefit from increased diversity of social interactions. I think supplementing education, as you did, is something I definitely support. It is the pure and total withdrawal that worries me.
Thanks again!
I'm learning too! I definitely don't think an uneducated person is inherently deficient. I have a Ph.D and my partner has almost no education and didn't even graduate high school. I know he regrets that immensely though.
I think part of the thing is that you sound quite atypical. I think I would qualify my statement to say it makes me very nervous to think that in general people would be left to educate themselves. You have an investigative and exploratory mind, and you remind me quite a bit of myself - the way you describe your curiosity spreading over to many areas.
I do think academic education should be holistic and we should have to study and stretch our brains in areas we don't like - like calculus. Only developing in areas of our interests - well, that's not well-rounded, and also that is for the rest of life. I suppose what I'm saying is that college should be well-rounded like that, in my opinion. And that argument goes against the idea of focusing on teaching professional skills like a trade school. I think my field does teach applicable skills outside of college life, but I don't think all majors need to. For example, I think our entire country could use a semester of Art History and Science 101. There is something to be said for an educated, informed, and curious citizenry.
I think you are probably an exception to many rules. That might make it harder to tangibly understand why we can't all just learn on our own. The one bad teacher I know who does yell at students, for example, is a math teacher. In contrast, another math teacher I know goes above and beyond like it is her mission in life - she uses all sorts of creative examples and experiential learning to help students understand trig and calc and stats and algebra. Students are constantly talking in the halls about how they love how many examples she provides, and they line up outside her office for more interaction. So in that situation - if one was already fairly bright they could try to read a book on calculus - but it would not be the same as an exciting teacher who knows how students learn and what students need and not only lectures and explains examples, but takes you outside and walks you through applications of mathematics in the real world. She's seriously awesome.
I try to do that with English as well. I try to make classes so memorable that later, when students have gone and forgotten me, they will remember these examples.
Also I write and research student learning styles. I am very aware that some students are different. I have dyslexic students, developmentally challenged students, students with add, students with ptsd, and autistic students, among many others. I work very hard to address their learning styles.
But beyond that, some students simply learn better by working one on one with me or individually or kinesthetically - learning by doing, which is how I learn. Education should be taking these things into consideration and I think the best teachers do.
I think a system is necessary and valuable, but I agree we need to find ways to make it more flexible. Sir Ken Robinson lectures about creativity in very engaging and humorous ways if you google him or look for him on the TED website - a website which I think you would enjoy. Another is Big is Big Think.is
Hi PishPosh, I am back, I had to take a reprieve, but I am back ... :) I agree with a lot of the things that you say..and I am seeing that a lot of the things that I have complained about have a lot to do with the administration, and not the teachers. It's hard not to blame the teachers, until you try to talk to the administration. What I have found out is that for the most part, grades are being factored by tests..homework is next to nil. (This doesn't bode well for my daughter who doesn't test well). As far as the swimming..they practice from 5am until 7am, school starts at 7:20am...it may seem like too much, but from someone who grew up playing sports it's all about the determination, etc. Her coach is a teacher that I had in high school and he is one of the most respected coaches in Ohio ( he just retired from teaching but continues to coach and I've referred to him earlier as one of my best teachers ever), and his mantra is family first, then school, then swimming. Anyway, as far as her ACT "teacher", yes I actually have spoken to the assistant principal, but that didn't do much good. It also didn't when I spoke to him about about her English teacher. I totally understand that you think that as a teenager she might be overreacting, but that is not her... you wouldn't know that... but what teacher wouldn't assign homework??? I don't get that!!!! ( she is seriously not a drama kid, but I get it) ANYWAY...I've had ANOTHER friend take her kid out of school... ( sophomore) because of social situations...my two best friends are homeschooling their kids ( of totally different ages and for totally different reasons) I'm so worn out now..on the school thing. I know my oldest daughter has one year left in public school, and my youngest starts kindergarten in the fall...maybe you will guide me through the next 13 years? :)
Hi Amy :) welcome back!
Well I will say that I have been mentioning off-hand to my students the sorts of debates that are going on and concerns people have with education. I've been asking them about their high school experiences. Some of my students are recent high school graduates and some of them have children approaching high school.
I am totally appalled at the lack of homework thing. I have been asking my students if they had homework in high school and some said they had too much and some said they didn't have enough. But none of them said they didn't have any. That blows me away.
My younger brother and sister are just about to graduate from high school. My family does not have a lot of money - it is an average middle class public school - and I've seen their lesson plans and it is all pretty decent to me. In fact, because they can have more challenging expectations and there is more and more pressure on me to help recruit and retain students and because some high schools are getting worse - SOME of the stuff my brother and sister learn in their high school English class is more advanced than what I teach my freshman college class. And that is NOT by my choice. When I taught at a "better" school, the students I worked with were far advanced. Anyway, I guess my point is that both college and high school qualities seem to be completely all over the place across the board. My brother and sister had such a positive experience. I had a horrible experience. I wish your children were getting the education they deserve.
Oh boy you have a kindergartener too! Well we can definitely keep an ongoing conversation for the next 13 years. I have learned a lot from these posts and these conversations and I truly appreciate it :)
First, I agree that teachers are far more than a piece of paper! Unfortunately, they do not get the recognition they deserve from a system that has failed its teachers and many of its students, my son included. I could not disagree with you more on the opinion one needs a teaching degree to homeschool their children. I see your disclaimer at the end of the post, and I would have to say my oldest son would be included in that, but there are plenty of misconceptions you have addressed in this post.
1. socialization-My son has more opportunity to socialize now than he ever had in PS. There was no time to build friendships, talk, or socialize. Lunch? 20 minutes? Please! In most cases the lunches were "silent" and the children could not even socialize then. How about recess? Nope. Not there either. Why? there was no recess! They barely got out of the building. Gotta prep for those tests, ya know! PE once a week for 45 minutes, does not count for socialization. When are they supposed to be building relationships? This misconception of lack of socialization infuriates me. Because, frankly? There was no opportunity for it in PS, so why do HS parents get so much flack on this topic?
2. In public school, my child's needs were never met. He was a number, a score. Period!
3. Where are you getting your facts/statistics on children that have entered college, taken SATs or ACTs? You mentioned that your personal experience with children that have re-entered the PS system showed they were behind (paraphrasing there), but surely your personal experience at your place of employment does not encompass the masses. You must know that? How many kids have you personally witnessed re-entering in the PS system?
There's just so much here. I may write a post in response, and send a link back. I'm sure you're open to that, as you've posted your opinion to your blog for us to read.
That being said, I value your writing and bravery sharing such a brazen opinion with a community that is filled with parents that homeschool. We are all entitled to our opinions. And mine? I disagree!
Thanks Adrienne! And of course you are welcome to do that. I encourage all views and if this is something you are passionate about I respect that. This particular post got a LOT of comments from homeschooling parents and teachers and students alike so I encourage you to read those just to see at least some of the responses out there too as you write yours because I think there is a good diversity of views here and a number of points covered. I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue, since we feel so strongly about it. I've taught at a number of public institutions, at various levels, from elementary to high school to college, in many different states, and I train teachers. So drawing on my own experience, which certainly is something we all do, is in this case something that comes from a breadth of personal experience (as well as research, conferencing, training) in a variety of professional contexts. I do think that the research on this issue is flawed, limited, questionable, and sketchy at best. Most of it is passionate opinion responses or research based on insufficient or unbalanced measurements, comparing apples to oranges. We need to study this issue a lot more, find more common ground, and make improvements the the educational opportunities on all sides of the issue.
Anyway I'm sorry your children (and you) and this experience in public schooling. I certainly would never take away a parent's constitutional right to choose their child's education, and at the end of the day we both want the best education possible for the children, we just have different ideas on how to procure that. But I bet we both have that commonality of how much we value education - whether it is from the parent or teacher, and I bet we both agree on some of the things that are preventing a good education in public schools, and at the end of the day we probably have more in common than not.
I so agree with this article. I have a neighbor who homeschools to young girls. They are not getting the education they deserve. The mother is paranoid to let the children out of her sight. I do feel this is a form of child abuse. They belong to a homeschool group but so many of the children in the group are behavior problems and learning disorders. I feel so sorry for these kids. The parents all have issues.
I know a homeschool mother who instills fear into her children of public school. Tells them they paddle children etc. This is wrong Control with fear nice
I was a teacher and I can tell you that having a teaching degree does not make you a good teacher. Most of what I learned in teacher's college related to the history and philosophy of teaching. There was very little instruction on how to teach individual subjects, how to maintain control in a classroom effectively or how to deal with the organizational side of teaching. When I started teaching I was flying by the seat of my pants! There was no system of mentoring new teachers to help them with the burden. I had 32 children in a split class, six who were identified as needing either educational or emotional assistance.
I'm a homeschool mom of a neuro-atypical child. I have seen what special education consists of - dumbing down the information, constant negativity, and trying really hard to somehow force that square peg to fit in the round hole of the school system. As a mom, I feel that a big part of my job is to research - how my kids learn, how to best parent them, how to best educate them. At home, my son is learning according to his own developmental time table. When I withdrew him from school, he was a 'problem', he was a flight risk, he was about to enter 'reading recovery', and was considered to have social issues. At 11, he is a delightful, intelligent, well-mannered boy. He has friends. He writes fantasy stories. He reads extensively. His math skills are at grade level. He knows more history than I do. By homeschooling him, I took what the system considered his negatives, and worked with him to turn them into positives.
Perhaps there are schools out there where teachers are truly trained. Who continue to research how children learn. Who celebrate the individual. Who teach to the child, rather than to suit the system. I haven't come across any (and as a tech trainer working with identified kids, I've been in a LOT).
When I was a tech trainer, I used to sit in the staff room at the various schools I attended and just listen. The negativity, the gossip and the animosity directed at the children in their care was appalling.
I'll keep my boy home for now.
Teachers these days don't rely on textbooks. I only used ours a couple times this year.
Hi Pish Posh and Aunt Lola!! :) Hope u are doing well.. Pish Posh your blog is awesome...Aunt Lola, I hope you don't hate me :) You girl's have an awesome night.. and thank you for letting me complain about my daughter's school...nothing to do with you guys at all. :)
Thanks Mari! Complain away, it is a forum. And this post and all these comments have taught me a great deal about different people's opinions, experiences, frustrations, and perspectives. I have widened my view on the issue :)
All I want is for children to get a good education. I know we all want that.
best wishes!!
If my kids had ended up in your class, it would have been because they failed at homeschooling. So you are encountering something called "selection bias." Each of my kids, homeschooled K-12, has graduated from college with straight A's. Each is extremely independent, confident, and self-disciplined. We homeschooled them not to micromanage them, but to give them the freedom that they could never have in the narrow constraints of your classroom and institutional schools. Their playground was a mountain meadow near a creek, it was also their science laboratory.
What is the difference between a modern prison and a modern school? Both have metal detectors and security. Both are regimented. Both compel those inside to do the bidding of the authorities, to remain onsite, and allow minimal freedom.
There was a time in colonial America when the only way to learn was gather at a place where a learned individual was present and some books, rare resources, were to be found. Your system has never really progressed past that point, notwithstanding the availability of modern resources and the possibility of learning anywhere. You are stuck in the 1700's.
What we did with our children is something that you could never duplicate in your classroom. Never. We nurtured in them a deep intellectual curiosity and gave them encouragement, freedom, opportunity and lots of resources to explore to the limits their own interests, including travel as warranted. Then their love of learning and intellectual curiosity drew them through the process of education, ultimately through college, and resulted in acceptance at the most demanding graduate schools in the nation. Each is a socially adept adult, well employed, and engaged in continual self-learning. Tellingly, they are now beginning the process of homeschooling their own children, to pass on the precious gift of childhood freedom that no child in your classrooms can ever know.
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